a "most unsuccessful war"? is Israel idealogically bankrupt?

Forever settled in heaven · Aug 2, 2006

interesting viewpt, not fr Hezbollah (whose reports r less n less credible) but fr an Israeli:

The most unsuccessful war

By Ze'ev Sternhell

No situation can continue to exist for long without an ideological reason. That's how when once it was clear that it was not achieving its aims, an unsuccessful military campaign was upgraded with the wave of a magic wand to the level of a war of survival. When everyone understood that a moral reason had to be found both for the dimensions of the destruction sowed in Lebanon and the killing of the civilian population there, and for the Israeli dead and wounded (nobody is even talking about the exposure of the entire civilian population in the North of Israel to enemy fire while people are kept in disgraceful conditions in bomb shelters), a war of survival was invented, which by nature must be long and exhausting.

That is how a campaign of collective punishment that was begun in haste, without proper judgment and on the basis of incorrect assessments, including promises that the army is incapable of fulfilling, turned into a war of life and death, if not some kind of second War of Independence. In the press there have even been embarrassing comparisons to the struggle against Nazism, comparisons that are not only a crude distortion of history, but disgrace the memory of the Jews who were exterminated.

The architect of this unsuccessful campaign has outdone himself: In order to cover up his failures, he delivered a poor man's pseudo-Churchillian speech, and promised us more "pain, tears and blood." There really is no limit to shamelessness. It must be said in favor of the government spokesmen who are in greatest demand on the foreign stations, from the Israel Defense Forces Spokesman to Tourism Minister Isaac Herzog and former prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu -- that none of them has stooped to propaganda of this kind.
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rest of the opinion at http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745313.html

do u agree w it?

EDIT: alternative view--gotta get victory "at any price"

LadyEagle · Aug 2, 2006

Agree with "We have no choice but to win this war, decisively and at any price. It is an absolute necessity, and the only way to do it is by preventing the enemy from making any gains, and exacting a disproportionate price from all those involved in the terror. "

I wish the US government/administration felt the same way but they do not, otherwise, our borders would be secured and protected and islamic groups within the US which support terrorist groups would be disbanded and all illegal aliens would be deported.

El_Guero · Aug 2, 2006

Really close to my assessment weeks ago.

That is how a campaign of collective punishment that was begun in haste, without proper judgment and on the basis of incorrect assessments, including promises that the army is incapable of fulfilling
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El_Guero · Aug 2, 2006

But, they need us to pray and intervene with the Father that they may (1) have peace and (2) come to know the Christ so that (3) fewer of them will go to eternal damnation.

Just because it was hasty is no reason for me to not pray - maybe even more reason for me to pray.

LadyEagle · Aug 2, 2006

http://pmw.org.il/bulletins_Aug2006.htm#b020806

Eliyahu · Aug 11, 2006

I received an interestung mail:

http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp

This is what I suspected so far.

People are crazy when they easily forget about what they declared.

Where is UN resolution 15xx gone?
Didn't it condemn Hezbollah as Terrorists?
What has UN done against the Terrorists during the past 6 years in the meantime ? Notice the poor excuses by Kopi Anan who has become the spokesman for Hezbollah.

Isn't it right time to root out the Terrorists now ?

I don't find much difference between Hezbollah and Lebanese, but again nor find I any sanity from the people who are sympathetic with Lebanese either.
Were they not the parasites each other ?

If they wish the peace really, they must ask Hezbollah to stop shooting rockets into the Israeli civilians as Hezbollah provoked the battle first.

Satan works very hard thru News Media, regardless of whom they belong to, either Jewish or Christian, or non-Christian etc.

We must judge and discern News Media everyday!

Are they not hypocrites who claims that they are true believers in Christ but deny and disbelieve that God promised to Israelites?

Is it too difficult for them to believe and obey God who promised this verse : Genesis 15:18 - 21 ?

More important thing is that any attempt trying to dispossess Israelites of the land of Israel will surely fail as God promised : Amos 9:15

Revmitchell · Aug 11, 2006

The most unsuccessful war

By Ze'ev Sternhell
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Idiot!:thumbs:

Forever settled in heaven · Aug 12, 2006

Revmitchell said:

Idiot!
Click to expand...

we may havta wait till Monday to decide.

meantime, it looks like Pat Robertson's doesn't have too many allies in his decision to take sides:

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] Evangelicals Quiet About Lebanon War [/FONT] [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] Associated Press [/FONT] August 11 - In the flurry of pro and con statements from American Christians regarding Israel's strikes on Hezbollah guerillas, one major religious group has remained notably quiet - evangelicals.

The most influential organizations in the movement, usually vocal backers of the Jewish state, have made no formal comment on the war in Lebanon despite pleas from Israelis that they do so.

Among those who have taken no official stand are the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents thousands of local churches and ministries, the 16.2 million-member Southern Baptist Convention and James Dobson's Focus on the Family. [/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the evangelical association, insists the inaction is not a criticism of Israel, but reflects a new caution about the risks for Christians living in Muslim countries. After the Sept. 11 attacks, American evangelicals came out strongly against terrorists, with some calling Islam a violent religion. That created a backlash overseas.

Haggard said Israeli embassy officials called him several times a day during the first two weeks of the conflict, which erupted last month, asking for a public expression of support. He declined.

"Our silence is not a rejection of Israel or even a hesitation about Israel. Our silence is to try to protect people," said Haggard, pastor of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. "There's a rapidly growing evangelical population in virtually every Islamic country. Much of it is underground in the countries that are more radicalized, and many of the Christians survive based on their neighbors just ignoring the fact that they don't go to mosque."

Asked for comment, Richard Land, head of the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, said only that, "Southern Baptists overwhelmingly support Israel's right to live at peace with her neighbors within secure borders and they pray for the peace of Jerusalem to prevail in the Middle East."

Paul Hetrick, a spokesman for Focus on the Family, said Friday that his organization was "contemplating issuing a statement."

The three groups have far greater impact on public policy than do Christian Zionists, a minority among conservative Christians who back Israel unequivocally because they see its existence as part of biblical prophesy.

Many evangelicals have individually expressed support for Israel. Evangelist Pat Robertson was in Jerusalem this week, where he joined hands with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to pray for victory in Lebanon.

However, Robertson's support among American evangelicals is waning and other conservative Christians have quietly expressed concern about the hundreds of Lebanese civilians killed.

While Israel is the biblical homeland, Lebanon also holds a special place in the Christian community.

About 36 percent of its population is Christian, comprised mostly of Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics, according to the World Christian Database at Gordon Conwell-Theological Seminary. And Christians across the spectrum of belief have long-standing missionary ties there, setting up hospitals, schools and other ministries.

The Web site of Christianity Today, a top evangelical magazine, has drawn comments from Lebanese Christians pleading with evangelicals to do more to end the violence.

"I think there is a little concern about being too closely identified with Israel on the part of some evangelicals," said Corwin Smidt, a political scientist at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Mich., who studies evangelicals. "I think there is some uneasiness."

Those reservations have mainly been expressed by the Roman Catholic Church and the more liberal mainline Protestant groups. The World Council of Churches, which represents about 350 Protestant and Orthodox Christian churches, along with the Lutheran World Federation and the Vatican have repeatedly called for a cease-fire.

Nathan Diament, public policy director for the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, which has strengthened ties with evangelicals in the last few years, said "Israel needs as many friends as she can get right now," but he was not worried that some groups have not spoken out.

"I don't think anyone doubts the great support that Israel has in the evangelical community," he said.
[/FONT]
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http://www.beliefnet.com/story/197/story_19772_1.html

genesis12 · Aug 12, 2006

Isn't it tragic that we are being muzzled? Not only internationally, or nationally, but on our own block? Folks are afraid to speak out against Islam on their block, at town hall meetings, at county government, and in many cases, state government. We've been muzzled. We're afraid! Freedom of speech is no more! I dare not offend anyone, even if "anyone" is a tyrant, a terrorist, an anti-God hate-filled organization. It I speak out, I may be targeted! How did we allow this to happen? It is one thing to live in "the land of the free and the home of the brave," quite another to tolerate anything, based upon some nightmare reasoning of the state, federal, and Supreme Courts. Where do we go from here?

Eliyahu · Aug 13, 2006

The other day I visited a computer shop owned by ex-Palestinian man. He complained about Israel in front of several Arabics. He said Israel occpies their land illegally. I was quiet and found myself quite coward. I may have told him, if he were alone at that time, that it is the Arabic Muslims who occupied Land of Israel illegally. I would have said that there are plenty of proofs supporting the ownership of the land belonging to Israel.

Now when we watch TV's and read newspapers, it is apparent that Arabics believe that Israel occupies the land of Palestine illegally or most of Muslims even do not know why and how Israel claims the ownership of the land.

This is because the whole world, not only myself, is scared to tell Muslims that the ownership of the Land of Israel belongs to Israel and that Palestinians are illegal occupiers!

Again and again I notice Israel fails in gaining the support from Public Opinion of the world. Instead I believe that Israel and Christians must declare the truth straightforwardly, saying up front that the Land of Israel belongs to Israel because:

1) Bible proves this very truth
God registered the ownership in the Best Sellling book throughout the history.
Many books such as history other than Bible support that Bible is true.

2) All the historical ruins and remains prove and support the ownership belonging to Israel

3) Almost all the geographical names such as Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, Jericoh, Hebron, Galilee, Beersheva, prove and support that they were once the Land belonging to Israel, and that the history written in Bible is true.

4) God gave each nation the territory where they have to and can live according to Dt 32:8
If Israel claims Teheran or Cairo belongs to Israel, I would strongly oppose to Israel. But if Israel claims the Land of Israel belongs to them I would definitely support them.

5) Koran or any Muslim documents never mention about Jerusalem ( as far as I know) or ownership for the land of Israel.

6) 4 times of War ruled out that the Land belongs to Israel. ( Independence War, Suez Canal War, 6 Days War, Yom Kipur)
If those wars were provoked by Israel, Arabics and Muslims may have some arguments, but those wars were provoked by those Muslims and Palestinians first but they lost the wars to Israel, and the wars are often said to belong to God.

7) The whole Muslim world must prove themselves by implementing Democracy, by imrpoving the level of life of their people in order to justify their religion. Allah may be too much stupid to protect his people or he may be dead as 1.3 billion Muslims are mostly in povery under the GNP of 1,000 Dollars per annum. Muslim world have more than 25 million square kilometers which is even bigger than the former USSR. Many countries like Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong achieved the economic success even without natural resources.
Why are the Muslim so poor? Why are there few Muslim countries which have the democracy achieved.

8) Any human effort to deny Bible assurance will surely fail. Any attempt to deny the ownership belonging to Israel will surely fail.

We must enlighten them( Muslims and Palestinians) with such reality.
We must confront them with the Truth, up front.
We must speak out to them as much as possible.

If the Ideology of Israel failed, it means they need to pray God and God will enlighten them that Yeshuah Ha-Masiach ( Jesus Christ) whom they pierced was the real Messiah and God will give them the peace.

Forever settled in heaven · Aug 13, 2006

Eliyahu said:

in front of several Arabics. ....
it means they need to pray God and God will enlighten them that Yeshuah Ha-Masiach ( Jesus Christ) whom they pierced was the real Messiah and God will give them the peace.
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i'm not sure what "Arabics" r, but u're right that they need the REAL messiah whom they pierced (Rev 19).

at any rate, the ceasefire may not pacify either side in the long term, if all it's done is stir the hornet's nest, a pity really (see reports in the Israeli papers):

Hizbullah 'victory' boosts extremists
Khaled Abu Toameh, THE JERUSALEM POST Aug. 13, 2006
At least 50 newborn babies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have been named after Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah over the past month, sources in the Palestinian Authority Health Ministry told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday.
The move is an indication of his growing popularity of Nasrallah among Palestinians and Arabs in general, many of whom hail him for merely daring to stand up to Israel. As the war nears its end, some moderate Arabs expressed fear that the widely-perceived conviction on the Arab street that Hizbullah had won would enhance the position of those who argue that Israel can be defeated or destroyed.
"Almost every day we have a case of parents asking to name their newborn babies after Nasrallah," one source said. "This reminds me of the days when Palestinians used to name their children after Saddam Hussein because of the missile attacks on Israel during the Gulf War."
Naming babies after Nasrallah is only one of the ways many Palestinians have been expressing their gratitude for the Shi'ite leader for firing thousands of rockets and missiles at Israel and for inflicting heavy casualties on the IDF. Nasrallah's posters and the yellow flag of Hizbullah have flooded local markets. CDs containing new songs heaping praise on Nasrallah and Hizbullah are being sold on the streets of Palestinian cities for NIS 10.
One of the most popular, Welcome the Hawk of Lebanon, includes 14 songs and parts of speeches delivered by Nasrallah since the war broke out. Some of the songs ridicule Arab governments and leaders for failing to join the fight, while others urge the Palestinian factions to copy Hizbullah's tactics and step up attacks on Israel.
Expressing enormous admiration for Hizbullah, Palestinians across the political spectrum agreed that Israel had suffered a humiliating defeat.
....

Palestinian political analysts said the fact that many Palestinians and Arabs are convinced that Hizbullah had won the war will boost the popularity of extremist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Qaida.
"This war will have negative repercussions on the Palestinian arena," said former PA minister and political analyst Ghassan Khatib. "The radicals who believe that force is the only way to resolve the conflict will be strengthened as a result of this war."
Arab commentators were quick to declare over the weekend that Hizbullah had won the war.
Writing in the Mathaba News Network, columnist Zaher Mahruqi said the Hizbullah "victory" will boost the status of jihadists around the world.
"As the jihadists movements prove their potency on the battleground in southern Lebanon, the rest of the jihadists in the world win, at the very least, a psychological victory and a renewed sense of legitimacy," he said. "After all, Hizbullah, which was coined to be a terrorist group by world powers, is now viewed as a legitimate and capable resistance movement."
Noting the fact that al-Qaida had come out in support of Hizbullah, Mahruqi continued: "This symbolic unification, which came at a time when the Arab regimes had been stripped of final grain of manhood when they stood helpless while the children of Kana fell, entails the rise of jihadists and the beginning of a free fall of [pro- Western] Arab leaderships.
"Hizbullah won the war and in doing so has given hope to the Arab and Muslim world that where there is faith, will and preparation, nothing is impossible. The army that was thought to be too powerful for the 250 million Arabs combined has been put in check by a group of less than 10,000 men. That is indeed legendary and has many implications."

=================
in Haaretz.com ...

Let the devil take tomorrow By Moshe Arens To lead the nation in a war to victory was just too much for them. Too heavy a burden for their narrow shoulders. That trio - Ehud Olmert, Amir Peretz and Tzipi Livni - asked and received a mandate to lead the people of Israel, promising to take our fate into our own hands and unilaterally establish Israel's borders by evacuating Israelis who live in Judea and Samaria, and turn Israel into a country "in which it will be a pleasure to live." We do not know and probably will never know if they would have been up to that task, but we now know they are not fit to govern Israel in these trying times.

They had a few days of glory when they still believed that the IAF's bombing of Lebanon would make short shrift of Hezbollah and bring us victory without pain. But as the war they so grossly mismanaged wore on, as northern Israel received its daily dose of 150-200 rockets, the Galilee was destroyed and burned to the ground, over a million Israelis sat in shelters or abandoned their homes and both civilian and military casualties mounted - gradually the air went out of them. Here and there, they still let off some bellicose declarations, but they started looking for an exit - how to extricate themselves from the turn of events they were obviously incapable of managing. They grasped for straws, and what better straw than the United Nations Security Council. No need to score a military victory over Hezbollah. Let the UN declare a cease-fire, and Olmert, Peretz, and Livni can simply declare victory, whether you believe it or not.

An almost audible sigh of relief could be heard from the Prime Minister's Office as the negotiations that were supposed to lead to a cease-fire began at the UN. The appropriate rhetoric has already started flying. So what if the whole world sees this diplomatic arrangement - which Israel agreed to while it was still receiving a daily dose of Hezbollah rockets - as a defeat suffered by Israel at the hands of a few thousand Hezbollah fighters? So what if nobody believes that an "emboldened" UNIFIL force will disarm Hezbollah, and that Hezbollah with thousands of rockets still in its arsenal and truly emboldened by this month's success against the mighty Israel Defense Forces, will now become a partner for peace? Does a cease-fire that will avoid further casualties among the IDF's soldiers not outweigh these concerns over future events?
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saturneptune · Aug 13, 2006

Aside for all the reasons given, the bottom line is this. The UN has not accomplished on successful thing in 61 years. Why on earth would anyone think they would start now? Why would Israel put any hope in such a worthless organization?

In the Old Testement, throughout the Books of Exodous, Joshua, Judges, Kings, etc, Israel goes through a pattern of depending on God, then moving away from Him, then they (Israel) gets in a fix, then calls out to God, and He rescues them. The cycle goes on and on.

It seems Israel still has the disease. Time after time since 1948, resolution after resolution has been passed by the UN. Each time they failed to act. Time after time Israel has given concessions, given land, etc for peace. Each time they get stabbed in the back. Now here we go again. A UN peace deal. It gives Hezballah a chance to fight another day.

Israel, when are you going to get the idea? If you want a different outcome, you have to try something different, like winning a war, and wiping out the enemy. Its like, I like hitting myself with a hammer because it feels so good when I stop.

rbell · Aug 13, 2006

a couple of thoughts...

-ditto on the UN. What a waste of NY real estate. They are patently anti-Israeli, and anti-US.

-what's this stuff about "illegal occupation?" To the victor goes the spoils of war. Israel has defended its turf in the past. It now belongs to them. It may stink...ask any American Indian about that...but that's how it goes.

-Israel is starting to fight wars like we do now...not to win. If you're gonna go after those terrorists, go for it. Collateral damage will be severe, but when your enemy shoots at you from mosques and apartment complexes full of children...

it's not WW2 anymore. The bad guys don't wear the same kind of hats.

Forever settled in heaven · Aug 13, 2006

saturneptune said:

In the Old Testement, throughout the Books of Exodous, Joshua, Judges, Kings, etc, Israel goes through a pattern of depending on God, then moving away from Him, then they (Israel) gets in a fix, then calls out to God, and He rescues them. The cycle goes on and on.
...

Israel, when are you going to get the idea? If you want a different outcome, you have to try something different, like winning a war, and wiping out the enemy. Its like, I like hitting myself with a hammer because it feels so good when I stop.
Click to expand...

seems like the clue lies in the top paragraph above: Israel needs to return to Yahweh-Yeshuah-haMoshiach n stop trying to do what seems good in its own eyes.

until that day, the cycle goes on n on, n no one's in a position to intervene, for or against, in YHWH's dealings. anyway, don't Christians have the Gt Commission still in force as their fulltime job?

Eliyahu · Aug 14, 2006

The Hope will not come from UN, but only from God.
Israel need to be bankrupted ideologically first, then they may be desperate to seek after God, then they find He is the one whom they pierced before ( Zech 12:10)
Are the Christians righteous enough to condemn them ? Christians are quite coward in many ways, and lukewarm now.
The world may continue to anticipate something from UN but no substantial peace will come from there.

I am very sure that Vatican works behind the EU countries which are mostly dominated by Roman Catholic.
Simon Perez was cultivated by RC school in Poland. I believe that Vatican was behind Oslo agreement.
The aim of Vatican is to get Temple Mount within the International Freedom City Jerusalem.
Islam would rather choose to give Temple Mount to Vatican not to Jews.
At the end the Pope may stand on the Holy Temple as Jesus mentioned in Mt 24.

Forever settled in heaven · Aug 15, 2006

well, for now they at least have a Win-Win-Win situation.

Mister Olmert, big bad Hezboy Nasrallah, n Mister Bush--all 3!--r claiming victory w the ceasefire.

maybe they all need to go back to playing civil again n meet the next time at the Beijing Olympics.

pas y amor.

a "most unsuccessful war"? is Israel idealogically bankrupt?

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