A Primitive Baptist's look at John 3:16

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> only those who have been quickened or made alive by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ have the ability to know the wretched state man is in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A non-primitive Baptist says AMEN!

 

I also agree with Elder Pyles, here is a site with several of Elder Pyles messages..www.pbsermons.org/elders.html..God bless

 

That was great the second time I read it. The first time I kept thinking he's going to tell us we have to take up snakes and be bitten to be saved!

 

That's Elder Sonny Pyles! I heard him preach 3 times. Two times at my church Little Bethany Primitive Baptist Church in San Diego and once at Elder Joe Holders Primitive Baptist Church in Bellflower California.

Most able minister of the Primitive Baptist and his son David Pyles is also a minister.
I believe his home church is in Graham Texas.
Some of his sermons are on the Primitive Baptist web site... Just thought you would like to know... Eugene

 

I have heard both Sonny and David Pyles preach, and what I like most is they don't take scripture out of context, just really good bible teachers.

 

bump

 

I think I recall that this sermon was posted earlier on the BB. I think the good elder's take on the story is slightly skewed. He focuses on three types of people:

It is debatable whether #2 is even possible in the text of Numbers 21.

First, it was all of the people of Israel who spoke against God and against Moses (cf. v.5). In the same way, it is all who are in spiritual rebellion against God in the matter of salvation.

Second, God sent the serpents to afflict all of the people because they were all in rebellion. In the same way, the curse of sin has fallen upon all men and all are in need of redemption.

Third, provision for healing was made for all who were bitten once the people came to Moses and confessed their sin. In the same way, Jesus' death makes possible salvation for all men.

Fourth, healing was accessed by an act of the will. A person had to look at the snake on the pole to be healed. In the same way, people are saved today when they hear the gospel and obey the command to repent and believe.

These applications of the elements of the story do not force a false importance upon people who are peripheral to the main point (such as those who died and those who were not bitten, if there were such). Rather, they focuses on the actual statements of the story and relate them to salvation. The natural flow of the story is what pictures salvation, not the process of forcing exegesis on the story to fit ones preconceived notions.

 

Ask a drug addict or someone in prison for a serious crime, if they know what a 'wretched state they are in.' They sure don't think they are on a pleasant vacation while behind bars. They know they are a sinner, but don't know the pathway out of their situation. That is where we come in. We have God Who is more than willing to forgive and to give inner peace.

A lost human being knows his or her sinfulness and guilt, without being regenerated first. In the old days we used to hear the term, 'the conviction of the Holy Spirit.' This,of course, happened before someone yielded their lives to Jesus.

 

Swaimj,

Slightly skewed?

When one believes correctly you don't have to run from the given text of John 3:16. Explain it grammatically, literally and don't hid behind a serpent's bite.

 

Swaimj,

You offered an excellent answer to the floundering Elder from the Lone Star state.

 

changed_like_saul,

Your post blessed my soul. Thank you very much for sharing that exposition with us. I say AMEN! to your post.

[ May 17, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

changed_like_saul,

The Saul of the New Testament was an avid Bible Scholar and well-known preacher and religious leader.

Yet, despite his enthusiasm and great studies of scripture, he had no idea who Jesus was, or what God was doing, until he HEARD Christ's voice, which started his personal relationship with Jesus.

I hope that all of us get "changed" like Saul!

Andrey
www.achievebalance.com

John 5 39-40 (NKJV)
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

 

That's correct. When interpreted in context, and comparing Scripture with Scripture, John 3:16 is shown to mean that those who believe in Christ (those ordained to eternal life, Acts 13:48) will be saved.

 

In the book "Elect In The Son" written by Dr. Robert Shank, he deals with this much misunderstood text.

On page 183 he indicates that Almighty God did not use His unfathomable powers to unconditionally elect certain Jews into the Kingdom. In fact God takes the agency away from Himself and places it, if you will, on the heads of the Israelite people. So we read in Acts 13:46 ‘It was necessary that the Word of God should first have been spoken to you; [John 1:11] but seeing YE PUT IT FROM YOU, and JUDGE YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles.' In this verse we do not find a deterministic God who decides the fate of His human creation. If this is true for the Israelites then we might also believe that it was true of the Gentile population also.

The good doctor of the church then goes into an extensive study of the difficult verse of Acts 13:48. ‘And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.'

Here is the problem and its solution. The Greek was interpreted into the Vulgate {Catholic version} and the Authorized Version and Revised Version followed their lead. In this unintentional way Reformed theology has bowed to the shrine of Roman Catholic theological understanding.

Alford, the Greek scholar, said on page 183 ‘The meaning of (tetagmenoi) must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life: the Gentiles, as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed. By whom so disposed is not here declared: nor need the word be in this place further particularized. We know that it is God who worketh in us the will to believe, and that the preparation of the heart is of Him: but to find in this text pre-ordination to life asserted is to force both the word and the context to a meaning which they do not contain.'

The Vulgate version had interpreters of this verse like St. Augustine and his followers in the Western Church in treating the great questions of free will, election, reprobation . . . .' Some of the Reformed churches did not accept the Vulgate version and yet were swayed by their Greek translation into their version.

If God in His sovereignty allowed the Israelites the will to determine their covenant relationship toward God in verse 46 then He would not in verse 48 choose some to life and some to everlasting destruction.

(tetajmenoi) is used with reference to the word, ordained. Tetajmenoi is a perfect, passive participle meaning, {having been disposed}. Now when we gather together the words from perfect Greek it reads like this. ‘And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as having been (ordained) {meaning}disposed to eternal life, believed. Those who were not inclined, for whatever reason, remained in unbelief.

The original intent of God written through the writings of the Apostle Paul would read like this. ‘ . . . and as many as having been disposed to eternal life, believed.' The determining fact rest not with God but human beings.

 

The last I heard of Robert Shank he was a member of the Church of Christ and quite Arminian, at the least, in his theology. Having read his book, Life in the Son, I wouldn't put much stock in his interpretation of soteriology.

 

Ing,
Perhaps you could convince us of your position by answering the substance of Ray Berrian's post rather than dismissing it on the basis of guilt by association.

 

I looked this word up in a dictionary, a concordance, and a lexicon, and I can't find this definition listed anywhere. Are you sure this is in the accepted range of meaning for this word?

 

I used about three sources. The easiest to understand for laymen is "The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament." Zondervan Publishing House. p. 527 . . . Acts 13:48. 'And as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed.'

Again, notice the context of verse 46 with reference to the Jews. 'Ye have put the Gospel from you . . . ' The Israelites missing their opportunity to spread the Gospel to the world was a matter of their personal volition, will, choice and not the alleged, determinism of Almighty God. Contextually and grammatically one has to come to this conclusion apart from Arminius or Calvin.

As to the contextual aspect even a junior high school student would understand this.