A Proper Concept of the Atonement

[BobRyan]

HP: If I never had an inkling about the Passover or the ‘day of atonement in the OT, and just heard the good news of the NT gospel and the fact that Jesus Christ died to forgive men of their sins, I would have known more about the atonement at that moment than they ever did in the OT EVEN IF they would have understood all there was to be revealed about the shadows.

"IF MAN" is the author of scripture and if it is true that as man you are so much wiser then they - then you might have a leg to stand on. But of course you would have to show that your depth of wisidom actually DOES exceed giants like Moses, Daniel, etc.

But assuming you COULD show that - then fine you could make your case.

ON THE OTHER HAND - if "GOD" is authoring the text and it is INFINITE WISDOM, Truth and light that is to be found in God's Words that "CAN NOT BE BROKEN" then your claim is pretty hollow.

Hint: My Bible has 66 books.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: My Bible has 66 books.

HP: I knew we could find some agreement if we hung in there long enough. Mine does as well.

 

[BobRyan]

ON THE OTHER HAND - if "GOD" is authoring the text and it is INFINITE WISDOM, Truth and light that is to be found in God's Words that "CAN NOT BE BROKEN" then your claim is pretty hollow.

My question is this - should this subject have it's own thread? would you be willing to debate your view on not needing the whole 66?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: My question is this - should this subject have it's own thread? would you be willing to debate your view on not needing the whole 66?

HP: You are a hoot

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Now for all of you holding to the literal payment theory, here is yet another thought for you. If Christ literally took upon himself the penalty of sin, and that penalty included physical death in some sense anyway, why do Christians still die? More over, why will some not see death in the rapture? How could have Christ literally paid for something that still is occurring, yet has not nor will not occur for others? A literal payment is an exacting payment, is it not?.

 

[BobRyan]

HP said:
HP: If I never had an inkling about the Passover or the ‘day of atonement in the OT, and just heard the good news of the NT gospel and the fact that Jesus Christ died to forgive men of their sins, I would have known more about the atonement at that moment than they ever did in the OT EVEN IF they would have understood all there was to be revealed about the shadows.

"IF MAN" is the author of scripture and if it is true that as man you are so much wiser then they - then you might have a leg to stand on. But of course you would have to show that your depth of wisidom actually DOES exceed giants like Moses, Daniel, etc.

But assuming you COULD show that - then fine you could make your case.

ON THE OTHER HAND - if "GOD" is authoring the text and it is INFINITE WISDOM, Truth and light that is to be found in God's Words that "CAN NOT BE BROKEN" then your claim is pretty hollow.

Hint: My Bible has 66 books.

 

[BobRyan]

Now for all of you holding to the literal payment theory, here is yet another thought for you. If Christ literally took upon himself the penalty of sin, and that penalty included physical death in some sense anyway, why do Christians still die? More over, why will some not see death in the rapture? How could have Christ literally paid for something that still is occurring, yet has not nor will not occur for others? A literal payment is an exacting payment, is it not?.

As I have already stated - the "payment" is in the "suffering" of the second death -- not merely dying.

In Is 59 death is viewed as "Rest and release for the righteous". ALL DIE (except those in the last generation that are raptured) - is it your claim that ALL pay part of their OWN debt of sin since ALL DIE?!!

It is the suffering that comes BEFORE death - in the second death - the lake of fire - that is the PAYMENt owed that was not paid in the FIRST death.

You yourself defined the "payment" NOT as death at all but as "INFINITE TORTURE" -- i.e. SUFFERING!

My point is -- the SUFFERING is what is owed and is what was not PAID in the first death - hence God does not count the first death as payment at all!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bob Ryan: As I have already stated - the "payment" is in the "suffering" of the second death -- not merely dying.

HP: Show us where the literal payment for sin is said to be suffering.

BR: In Is 59 death is viewed as "Rest and release for the righteous". ALL DIE (except those in the last generation that are raptured) - is it your claim that ALL pay part of their OWN debt of sin since ALL DIE?!!

HP: Absolutely not. Physical death IS NOT the penalty for sin. The TIMING of death is. God has shortened our life span as a direct consequent of sin, but a shortened lifespan is not ‘the penalty for sin.’ There is a clear distinction between a consequence of sin and a penalty for sin.

BR: It is the suffering that comes BEFORE death - in the second death - the lake of fire - that is the PAYMENt owed that was not paid in the FIRST death.

HP: Why do you stop there? You believe that annihilation is also the penalty. Why do you choose to mention only suffering here?

BR: You yourself defined the "payment" NOT as death at all but as "INFINITE TORTURE" -- i.e. SUFFERING!

HP: You have no problem typing “infinite.” Why is it that you cannot comprehend the concept that if the penalty is infinite, and the ‘literal’ payment has been made, that payment of necessity would be infinite as well??

BR: My point is -- the SUFFERING is what is owed and is what was not PAID in the first death - hence God does not count the first death as payment at all!

HP: Suffering is only part of the penalty Bob. ‘Infinite’ is its duration, ‘literally’ that is.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Here is a short test for Bob Ryan.

If I punish my child by telling him to sit in a chair for one hour, what is the literal punishment I have inflicted? Is he simply to be punished by sitting in the chair, for say five minutes and then getting up, or would he have to sit in the chair for ‘one solid hour’ to be ‘literally’ fulfilling the punishment?

Give us your definition of ‘literal.’

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Bob Ryan: As I have already stated - the "payment" is in the "suffering" of the second death -- not merely dying.

Then HP said

HP: Show us where the literal payment for sin is said to be suffering.

Is this the part where "I quote you" when you said that the payment for ONE sin is "Eternal torment" (infinite suffering)???

 

[BobRyan]

BR: In Is 59 death is viewed as "Rest and release for the righteous". ALL DIE (except those in the last generation that are raptured) - is it your claim that ALL pay part of their OWN debt of sin since ALL DIE?!!

HP: Absolutely not. Physical death IS NOT the penalty for sin. The TIMING of death is. God has shortened our life span as a direct consequent of sin, but a shortened lifespan is not ‘the penalty for sin.’ There is a clear distinction between a consequence of sin and a penalty for sin.

Well then - we agree on something.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: It is the suffering that comes BEFORE death - in the second death - the lake of fire - that is the PAYMENt owed that was not paid in the FIRST death.

HP: Why do you stop there? You believe that annihilation is also the penalty. Why do you choose to mention only suffering here?

If we are going to base this on what "I Believe" as you seem to claim in that point -- then

I believe that the DEBT owed is the suffering for each sin - as you do.

I believe that the CONSEQUENCE of a mortal paying that debt of suffering is that in the end they "Destroyed BOTH physical body AND soul" Matt 10. This makes God Just for Justice demands exact payment for each debt of sin but does not PROMOTE SIN in the payment NOR does it assign payment that can NEVER be paid, NOR does it engage in extreme and unnusual punishment - so yes, torment, and yes suffering but then "It ENDS"!

IF we are all WITH the LAMB wherever He goes and IN HIS presence - and therefore IN OUR presence our own precious loved ones suffer ALL the suffering due them for EACH sin - then it is MERCIFUL to us and JUST to them that they suffer only that EXACT amount "owed".

I believe that the DEBT - the FULL debt is PAID in the form of torment and suffering "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones" Rev 14:10.

So if you want to go with what "I believe" then those are the details you would be working with.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Here is a short test for Bob Ryan.

If I punish my child by telling him to sit in a chair for one hour, what is the literal punishment I have inflicted? Is he simply to be punished by sitting in the chair, for say five minutes and then getting up, or would he have to sit in the chair for ‘one solid hour’ to be ‘literally’ fulfilling the punishment?

Give us your definition of ‘literal.’

One complete hour - 60 minutes. But THEN what?

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:

BR: You yourself defined the "payment" NOT as death at all but as "INFINITE TORTURE" -- i.e. SUFFERING!

HP: You have no problem typing “infinite.” Why is it that you cannot comprehend the concept that if the penalty is infinite, and the ‘literal’ payment has been made, that payment of necessity would be infinite as well??

No problem at all -- in fact I have REPEATEDLY stated that this is the strength of your argument for all those who ALSO agree that "INFINITE TORMENT" is the "price owed" for even ONE sin.

I have repeatedly stated that the strength of your argument RELIES on that definition.

I have repeatedly stated that USING that premise then an INFINITE being could pay for AT MOST one INFINTE price owed which is your point.

How can you have missed that?

But I ALSO show in that statement above that YOU yourself limit the payment to JUST "INFINITE TORMENT" not to physical death. The suffering ALONE is your entire complete scope for the debt OWED for each sin!

I ALSO argue that the TORMENT is what is "OWED" - but I claim that the system is JUST in that it is not INFINITE price for FINITE deed comitted by FINITE being.

I then show that bringing that to an end is merciful to the the loved ones in heaven IN WHOSE PRESENCE all this torment takes place (Rev 14:10)

AND I show that having "AN END" makes this measurable with relatively MORE payment for some and LESS payment for others as God tells us in Luke 12:45-55.


Quote:
BR: My point is -- the SUFFERING is what is owed and is what was not PAID in the first death - hence God does not count the first death as payment at all!

HP: Suffering is only part of the penalty Bob. ‘Infinite’ is its duration, ‘literally’ that is.

Yes in your mind INIFINITE torture is what our loved ones owe for EACH sin.

I get that part.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: But I ALSO show in that statement above that YOU yourself limit the payment to JUST "INFINITE TORMENT" not to physical death. The suffering ALONE is your entire complete scope for the debt OWED for each sin!

I ALSO argue that the TORMENT is what is "OWED" - but I claim that the system is JUST in that it is not INFINITE price for FINITE deed comitted by FINITE being.

HP: If physical death is the penalty for sin, and Christ, as you have repeatedly stated, has literally paid that penalty, why do Christians still die? Yet still, why have not all seen death, nor will all. If I missed your explanation, forgive me.

BR: I ALSO argue that the TORMENT is what is "OWED" - but I claim that the system is JUST in that it is not INFINITE price for FINITE deed comitted by FINITE being.

HP: Here is the crux and heart of the problem. You, from your finite perspective, are trying to tell God what is just, and that what Scripture clearly states is not in that finite opinion just. You are concluding that sin is finite. What ever gave you that idea? Sin is not simply an act, that’s consequences can be defined, in its entirety, by a single intent or action with a single punishment, for sin is a progressive malady that man cannot stop the downward spiral of, once we engage in its first wrongful intent. Sin will not stop until it usurps the very throne of God. Once man sins, the contagion of rebellion is conceived, never to diminish throughout eternity apart from the offer of grace and forgiveness made possible by the shed blood of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: But I ALSO show in that statement above that YOU yourself limit the payment to JUST "INFINITE TORMENT" not to physical death. The suffering ALONE is your entire complete scope for the debt OWED for each sin!

I ALSO argue that the TORMENT is what is "OWED" - but I claim that the system is JUST in that it is not INFINITE price for FINITE deed comitted by FINITE being.

HP: If physical death is the penalty for sin, and Christ, as you have repeatedly stated, has literally paid that penalty, why do Christians still die?

I have repeatedly said that "torment and suffering" is the penalty and that death is the "release" from having to pay that torment.

The "destruction of both body AND soul" is merely the consequence of sin and payment of the debt of sin which is the debt of "suffering and torment".

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: I ALSO argue that the TORMENT is what is "OWED" - but I claim that the system is JUST in that it is not INFINITE price for FINITE deed comitted by FINITE being.

HP: Here is the crux and heart of the problem. You, from your finite perspective, are trying to tell God what is just

My argument is not "the wages of sin need to be finite torment and if God does not do that then I am not happy".

My argument is that "The Bible SAYS God DESTROYS both body and soul in hell fire and I agree that the torment which ends when the soul is DESTROYED appears to be a very just and righteous system".

But God did not solicit my opionion before He stated that HE turns the wicked "to ashes" and "destroys both body and soul in hell".

#1.
Jesus said it IS to "destroy BOTH body and Soul" Matt 10:28.

#2
Jude says it is not ONLY to "Destroy both body and soul in hell" (as Christ states in Matt 10) but is ALSO to "Convict all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds"

#3.
- John says that "they are judged ACCORDING to their deeds " Rev 20:12

#4.
and Christ said that in this judgment "according to deeds" - there is PROPORTIONAL degrees of punishment "he who KNEW his master's will and did NOT get read or act in accord with his will, shall receive MANY lashes, but he one who DID NOT KNOW it and committed deeds worthy of flogging will receive but FEW. And from everyone who has been given MUCH shall be required and to whom they entruested MUCH of him they will ask all the more. I have come TO CAST FIRE DOWN upon the earth and HOW I wish it were already kindled" Luke 12:47-48

#5. Christ does NOT predict INFINITE punishment is owed and that it can never be paid in full - RATHER Christ said "you shall not get out of there UNTIL you HAVE PAID the LAST cent". Luke 12:59

Clearly the PURPOSE of God includes CONVICTION of ALL their sins AS WELL AS degrees of punishment in accordance with those deeds and FULL payment.

This judgment also has an end result of NO MORE SIN, and no more SINNERS - including Satan HIMSELF (once the fire has done it's DESTROYING work of BURNING UP the wicked and the destruction of BOTH Body and soul in hell.

Mal 4:1,3 the WICKED are set ablaze and reduced to ashes under your feet - including the ROOT of the wicked - Satan HIMSELF

Ez 28:13-19 Satan "shall BE NO MORE"