A Question About Salvation

[Steven Yeadon]

I have been struggling with a very similar question to Rolfe's in this thread:
Salvation Question

How do we know someone is saved? I honestly don't know anymore except to check for good fruit (internal and external) and a living faith as both necessary for sure salvation.

I don't like this answer, but it seems to me that the bible and a lot of what I find on Christian websites pushes me in this direction. However, I struggle to understand how anyone is going to heaven when everyone I know fails the flawless good fruit test.

However, I know from a ton of bible verses that faith works itself out, but what does that look like? When does internal and external fruit show a person's faith to be true?

Or as TCassidy pointed out in Rolfe's thread, is the modern church in America's evangelism, missions, teaching, and preaching moving to unbiblical skepticism of one's salvation.

I feel lost on this issue, thanks to all who reply.

 

[TCassidy]

How do we know someone is saved?

We don't, and can't, know if another person is saved. Only God sees the heart. We can come to a conclusion, as you say, by observing their lives, but that is not an infallible indication. The lost can emulate the saved, and even the saved are sinners who live, at best, imperfect lives.

I have found (and I am in my 70s) that dwelling on such things is fruitless. The only heart I can even marginally know is my own. And even then that heart is deceitful. And the only heart I can really affect is my own. So I focus on myself and allow others to do the same.

 

[Salty]

Makes me think of the time several years ago, I was preaching in Northern NY (I was candidating)
The message was "Your Exciting Arrival in Heaven"

At the end of the service, a lady came forward - she told me her husband was a deacon of the church - and that for
over 40 years she thought she was born again - but realized that she had never actually saved.

We just never know. Even in my own case, I had attended church for well 5 years - I thought I was saved -
but as a pre-teen, I realized I had never once asked forgiveness of my sins. Finally in May of 1963, after a message by Rev
Merlin Schultz - I became a true Christian!

 

[Lukasaurus]

I'm going to write up my testimony soon, because it involves this, and doubt about my own salvation due to fruit inspectors (myself and others).

 

[Steven Yeadon]

This is an update from me:

I have long wrestled with the idea of a church within a church as part of my struggle about who is saved and not saved. The Anabaptists, especially Menno Simmons and the Mennonites, and their treatment during the Reformation opened my eyes on this one. Honestly, the Reformation leads me to believe Menno Simmons was the only true teacher of the period that I know of, given only he lives a life that tries to truly model Jesus’ life. Unlike Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, who are willing to murder martyrs in the effort to have doctrinal purity.

After what feels like a long and lonely sojourn, I have come back to the fold having learned that the emotional agony I have endured has only served to teach me that no one knows who is really a saint until their heart is opened up by the Judge Himself, Who is Jesus Christ. This is a depressing realization though, since a number of Christians I know do not model Jesus Christ with their life, and I might be surprised to find some of them rejected at the Judgment. I have contemplated the same with my eternity, but I have only increased my desire to obey Jesus through this and strengthened my understanding that I am a Believer.

 

[rsr]

Honestly, the Reformation leads me to believe Menno Simmons was the only true teacher of the period that I know of, given only he lives a life that tries to truly model Jesus’ life. Unlike Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli, who are willing to murder martyrs in the effort to have doctrinal purity.

You should expand your reading. Look up Balthasar Hubmaier and his associates, for example.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Thanks rsr for the good advice

 

[Baptist Believer]

How do we know someone is saved? I honestly don't know anymore except to check for good fruit (internal and external) and a living faith as both necessary for sure salvation.

1 John deals explicitly with this question (see 1 John 5:13). Take some time to read it all the way through.

However, I struggle to understand how anyone is going to heaven when everyone I know fails the flawless good fruit test.

"Flawless fruit test"? That's not biblical.

However, I know from a ton of bible verses that faith works itself out, but what does that look like? When does internal and external fruit show a person's faith to be true?

It looks like slow and steady transformation of character.

The big issue here is that evangelicalism has largely rejected the practices of Jesus and the church that result in intentional transformation. Instead, the practice, and even sometimes the teaching, of the local church is passivity - waiting for God to bring "revival" instead of actually being an apprentice of Jesus, doing what He has called us to do and living His life each day.

The spiritual practices of Jesus - prayer, scripture study and memorization, fasting, solitude, worship, service, fellowship, etc. - are often ignored, and the historical wisdom of the church in these matters gets rejected as "works." That rejection betrays a misunderstanding of the purpose of spiritual practices. The point of these practices is not to get good at doing them, but to train the mind and body so as to be more like Christ. Rarely does one go to the weight room and lift weights simply to become proficient at lifting weights - it is strength training. Rarely does one attend a language class simply because one wants to get good at taking language classes - one goes to learn a language. Students take music lessons not to simply spend time learning an instrument - one takes lessons to learn how to play music.

Where to we get the idea that we can be active disciples of Jesus without gaining practical experience how to do His works? How can we expect ourselves to be strong if we never exercise? How can we expect to speak French without learning the language? How can we expect to play a song on a musical instrument without a music lesson?

Some will see what I have written and claim I am simply advocating human effort. That's false. When we decide to stop being passive and engage with Jesus, we will find Him working with us and empowering us to make progress in every area of our lives. If Jesus is to be our Teacher and Master, He needs to have a student and apprentice. If we refuse to place ourselves in that position of learning, we cannot expect to be transformed and find the life of Christ flowing through us, giving us assurance that we are united with Christ.

Jesus calls to you today:

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
(Matthew 11:28-30)

 

[Yeshua1]

I have been struggling with a very similar question to Rolfe's in this thread:
Salvation Question

How do we know someone is saved? I honestly don't know anymore except to check for good fruit (internal and external) and a living faith as both necessary for sure salvation.

I don't like this answer, but it seems to me that the bible and a lot of what I find on Christian websites pushes me in this direction. However, I struggle to understand how anyone is going to heaven when everyone I know fails the flawless good fruit test.

However, I know from a ton of bible verses that faith works itself out, but what does that look like? When does internal and external fruit show a person's faith to be true?

Or as TCassidy pointed out in Rolfe's thread, is the modern church in America's evangelism, missions, teaching, and preaching moving to unbiblical skepticism of one's salvation.

I feel lost on this issue, thanks to all who reply.

All that God expects us to do is to inspect the fruit, and to see if there ANY change in ones lifestyle, practices, etc..
NONE of us mature at the same rate, so need to discern just what would be "qualifying amount of fruit"

One good sign to me is when the other party refuses to accept that their act of sinning is now wrong, and God wants them to deal with it. No conviction at all could mean no salvation at all!

 

[Reynolds]

I have been struggling with a very similar question to Rolfe's in this thread:
Salvation Question

How do we know someone is saved? I honestly don't know anymore except to check for good fruit (internal and external) and a living faith as both necessary for sure salvation.

I don't like this answer, but it seems to me that the bible and a lot of what I find on Christian websites pushes me in this direction. However, I struggle to understand how anyone is going to heaven when everyone I know fails the flawless good fruit test.

However, I know from a ton of bible verses that faith works itself out, but what does that look like? When does internal and external fruit show a person's faith to be true?

Or as TCassidy pointed out in Rolfe's thread, is the modern church in America's evangelism, missions, teaching, and preaching moving to unbiblical skepticism of one's salvation.

I feel lost on this issue, thanks to all who reply.

I don't know about the fruit inspecting part. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have better fruit than 90% of SBC members.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know about the fruit inspecting part. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have better fruit than 90% of SBC members.

Maybe, but their theology dooms them!

 

[Reynolds]

Maybe, but their theology dooms them!

Thats my point. Cult members bear better external fruit than most SBC church members.

 

[FollowTheWay]

I think this article by Adrian Rodgers provides some good insight into this question about assurance of salvation.

Assurance of Salvation
Assurance of Salvation

Adrian Rodgers

You Can Be Sure
How would you respond if I asked you right now, "Are you saved?"

I think the following is especially pertinent to the original question.

And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him. He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked (1 John 2:3-6).

This presents a serious problem, because not one of us has always kept all of God's commandments. I haven't since I've been saved, and you haven't since you've been saved. Yet the Bible says that we know we are in Him in that we keep His commandments.

Both the problem and the solution are found in the word keep. It is actually a mariner's word. In the apostles' day, sailors navigated by the stars. And a sailor setting his course by the stars was said to be "keeping the stars." It was his intention to sail by the stars.

An example I like to use concerns a daredevil who rides a bicycle one a wire across Niagara Falls. When he reaches the other side he asks a man standing there in amazement, "Now do you believe that I accomplished this amazing feat?" The other man says yes. The high wire artist replies, "Good. Hop on my shoulders then because I'm going to ride it back." A genuine saving faith involves this kind of trust and action on our parts.

 

[Vladimir]

I have been struggling with a very similar question to Rolfe's in this thread:
Salvation Question

How do we know someone is saved? I honestly don't know anymore except to check for good fruit (internal and external) and a living faith as both necessary for sure salvation.

I don't like this answer,

I feel lost on this issue, thanks to all who reply.

Once you got Holy Spirit you satisfied God for the 100%
ABOUT BIRTH FROM ABOVE


What do I see in the Bible about this?


There is a biblical and very brief formula: " Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." John5:1. Simple and universal!

Why such a formula is more appropriate compare to the generally accepted tradition: "Prayed for repentance = born again"?

Because it corresponds 100% to what Christ taught about the birth of Above in John 3: 1-21. We have the original source of the Birth from Above Doctrine - The Christ Himself!



I propose for all in the Birth from Above Doctrine let’s stop to be, like sheep, who have gone astray,
(each of us has turned to our own way) in a study of a Birth from Above Doctrine - then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful schemingaccording to the elements of the world, according to the philosophies, according to human traditions, the cunning art of seduction, not according to The Christ.


I suggest that you take a great interest in the Birth from Above Doctrine directly from Christ - "we know that you are a teacher who came from God" (John 3: 2). His doctrine is the most powerful Doctrine skeleton for the Body of Christ!

What did I see in the teaching of Christ about Birth from Above Doctrine?

1. Born from above is not our soul, nor the body, nor combination of the two, - it is our spirit born from above, New Born Spirit! The new spirit who dwells in us from the spiritual birth moment is born from the SPIRIT,- John3:6

2. The birth of a new Spirit in human occurs through faith in the fact that Jesus is the Christ.

But there is a problem. The meaning ofHis Name is not always revealed before believing in His Name.

Let's try to disclose it better.

1.God gave us His Son for the purpose that His mission would be accomplished. Thename "Christ" bears an immensely important meaning. And the meaning of His name is the Savior of the world. Christ = the Savior of the world. God loved the whole world, -Jn3: 14, 15, 16. On the Cross, the salvation of the human race was accomplished.

2. Whoever believes in His Name(Christ = the Savior of the world), this one accepts Christ.

3. In that one person, Christ by His Spirit makes the birth from Above, He creates new creation- the new spirit (John 3: 18, John 3: 6; 2Cor5)

Who does NOT NEED it?

Those who have no need of Christ, who doesn’t go to the Light, i.e. those who do not recognize themselves as 100% sinner, i.e. they are not Repentant.

This Light enlightens everyone, without exception, every person who comes to the world (John 3: 19, 20). It is also appropriate to mention here about John chapter 1.

To whom is it NECESSARY?

To a repentant, i.e. to those who recognized themselves as a 100% sinner, i.e. Penitential, i.e. those who go to the Light, and do not run away from Him, that is, those who need Christ (John. 3:21).

To this powerful skeleton (the Teaching of Christ on Birth from Above Doctrine in John3: 1-21), now it is very easy to increment the powerful muscles of the doctrine of the birth from above on the basis of Christ and the Apostles:

1. The Center of Revelation about God becomes the Truth, that He is our Father,- 1John, chapter 2 , and 3.

A father does not exist without children. Children are not without birth. John, chapter 1; Rome.8; 1John, chapter 2, and3.

2. It is revealed that Christ stands at the door of every human who comes into the world and knocks to their heart. He is waiting to be received.

It is up to everyone to accept Him or not to accept Him,- John1; Revelation 3:20.

And to those who receive Him, He enters in them.

By entering, He commits the birth of the spirit by His Spirit (John 3: 5,6, John 1, Rom. 8.)

3. It is revealed that we are saved through this resurrection by Him (Eph. 2)

The question arises: "How can we receive Him?"

Believe in His Name! (John3: 18; 1John 5: 1.)

By this faith, we open the door to Him, and He enters to make a birth from Above.

What is hidden in His Name?

Christ = the Savior of the world. John3: 16.17; In4: 25, In4: 42; In1: 29; 2Cor5: 19

The immediate task of the Church, which is the pillar and affirmation of Truth, is to examine and inform the people of what precious meaning is stood by His Name.

Through His Name, the Truth is revealed that He is the Savior of the world, and in fact the Savior of every soul who has a breath in his nostrils.

Is this fact enough to have eternal life with God after death?

NO. IT’S INSUFFICIENT.

To have a life with God after death, one must become His child = born again.

How to get into the list of His children = born again?

The way is- to believe that He saved all those who have breathing in their nostrils from retaliations for any possible sin you’ve done in past, present or future, and if all of humans, then, without any doubts, you are saved as well, dear friend.

BY THIS FAITH YOU OPEN THE DOOR OF YOUR HEART, HE ENTERS, AND MAKESBIRTH FROM ABOVE, AND GIVES THE AUTORITY TO YOU BE A CHILD OF GOD.

Some time ago I did not focus on the fullness of the Name of our Savior. After the visit of one FB group, another important aspect of His Namewas reviled. Jehoshua = Jesus = Savior of the soul / souls from their sins. Sin traumatizes the soul. And now I see better that formula of birth from above: Anyone who believes thatJehoshua (the Savior of the Souls of His people from their sins) is Christ (the Savior of the world from the wages of sin) is born from God !!! May His Name be exalted above all names !!!

Let every knee bow down before His Name !!!!

So, two aspects of salvation are revealed.

1. The Spirit is saved by a single offering through our faith on the spiritual birthday.

2. The soul continues- until the moment of death of the body - to be in need of The Savior for rescue from sins; the soul groans from them, waiting for release from them (Rom. 8: 19-21), and with fear and trembling we perform the salvation of our soul from sins with the help of the Savior of our souls (Phil.2 : 12-13). Sin traumatizes our souls, so we run to the Savior.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Vladimir]

Born from God-о рождении свыше - Владимир Сургай