a question for all premillenialists

First of all the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God being poured out upon the earth and its inhabiters who rejected Jesus Christ as their personal saviour.
The saints will be raptured out before the Great Tribulation.
Here is an some information from www.wayoflife.org:
"The church is not mentioned during the Tribulation period. The church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but not again until 22:16. Israel comes back onto center stage during the Tribulation (Re. 7:3-8; 11:3-13; 12:13) because this is the seventieth week of Daniel (Da. 9:24-27)."
Take a look at 1 Thess. 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Also Revelation 3:10, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Here is an excerpt from the KJV Study Bible:
"3:10. This verse presents a promise that Christ will rapture genuine believers out or the world before the Tribulation peiod begins. The hour of tempation is the period of worldwide testing which has not yet occurred (cf. Dan.12:1, Matt. 24:21,29). Christ promises to keep them from (Gr. ek, "out of") the period of the Tribulation. That is, they will not even enter into this period of history. The Tribulation is for teh prupose of trying or judging them that dwell upon the earth, those who are conneted to the earth and its system. Believers are not even included in this term (cf. Phil. 3:18-20; 1 Pet. 2:11; Rev. 6:10; 11:10; 13:8,12,14; 17:8)"
I hope that this helps you.

 

The elect during the tribulation... the ones that were saved during it, and Israel (the 144,000).

They would have not been saved at the rapture, so here they go up.

 

Who hath warned thee to flee from the wrath of God which is to come? First Baptist preacher said they would not be here.

 

Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Notice it says from one end of "heaven to the other" not earth.

Where are they gathered too? Christ, who has just returned to earth to set up his earthly reign of 1000 yrs.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


This is not the rapture, but the beginning of the millenial reign.

 

I'm sorry for being so stupid, deacon jd. I thought that your question pertained to the rapture of the church before, during, or after the trib. My mistake.
Now that I understand what you are asking I would have to agree with FERRON BRIMESTONE.

 

Right now, if Jesus comes before the
Tribulation Period starts, there would be 200 Million PLUS
raptures.

God is one rapturing type God! :thumbs:

* the 200 Million figure was established by vote of the Baptist
Board in 2003. 200 Million is one-tenth of the 2,000 Million
(2 Billion) nominal Christians alive on earth today.
Whilst the number of people raptured at the pretribulation
rapture is NOT established by the eschatologicaly
interested members of the Bapist Board - that membership
does include a lot of folks I think will make it into
heaven by the grace of God in Christ.

If the Antichrist is other than a bumbling baffon -
there will be no more than 20,000 survivers of the
Tribulation Period who are NOT Jews protected in the
wilderness by God. So I predict 20,000 people raptured
(given new bodies while still alive) at the postribualtion
resurrection/rapture.

 

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

Here you go:

FIVE Resurrections:

----------------------------------
\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
----------------------------------

This is an original writing of Ed. It has been posted
elsewhere, but in topics with different participants.

 

Deacon JD: //I would like to see one passage that mentions more
than one resurrection or judgement in the single passage.//

There are none. God choose, for some reason unknown to us,
not to put but one resurrection &/or judgement in one passage.
However, as you can see from my evangelistic 5 resurrections
document above, the who, where, when, how questions have
variant answers. To me this shows a difference between the
resurrections.

Here is my 5 judgements document:

-----------------------------------------
Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Deacon JD: //Notice all of the dead come forth both righteous and wicked at his command.I would like to see one passage that mentions more than one resurrection or judgement in the single passage.//

Your scripture John 5:28 does exactly what you request.
Here is the count (note the COUNT is NOT in the scriptue):

1. "resurrection of life"
2. "resurrection of damnation"

Even if they both happen the same milli-second, there are two
different resurrections named. Revelation 20:5 shows
these two resurrections to be 1,000 years apart.

 

Deacon JD: //Notice all of the dead come forth both righteous
and wicked at his command.I would like to see one passage
that mentions more than one resurrection or judgement
in the single passage.//

Here is another passage that mentions two resurrections:

Dan 12:1-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And at that time shall Michael stand vp, the great Prince
which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shalbe
a time of trouble, such as neuer was since there was a nation,
euen to that same time: and at that time thy people shalbe deliuered,
euery one that shalbe found written in the booke.
2 And many of them that sleepe in the dust
of the earth shall awake, some to euerlasting life,
and some to shame and euerlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightnesse
of the firmament, and they that turne many to righteousnesse,
as the starres for euer and euer.

This Old Testament (OT) passage shows the same two groups
as John 5:28. The timing is NOT delineated.

1. "resurrection of life"
some to euerlasting life

2. "resurrection of damnation"
some to shame and euerlasting contempt

But when we get to Revelation 20 more information is
given including the timing which is 1,000 years.
Here one passage helps illustrate and expand another passage.

 

Deacon JD: //Notice all of the dead come forth both righteous
and wicked at his command.I would like to see one passage
that mentions more than one resurrection or judgement
in the single passage.//

Rev 20:4 And
I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
vpon their foreheads, or in their hands;

and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

This shows two groups of the just that might be resurrected at
different times and different places. Yet they have one common
feature: they are part of the resurrection of the just.

I beleive that group #1:
I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them
is the people of the Church Age that were
resurrected or raptured at the
start of the Tribulation Period (AKA: 70th week of Daniel)
and have been rewarded with special service with Christ
during the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

I believe that group #2:
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
vpon their foreheads, or in their hands,
Also Known As (AKA) Tribulation Saints
are those who died in the Tribulation Period as witness
to their salvation experience. These people are
resurrected/raptured at the end of the Tribulation Period.

Although these two groups of people are resurrected/raptured
at different times that are 7-years apart,
they are collectively called THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

 

Here is the definition of 'day' used generally by Bible prophecy:

(definiltion from http://dictionary.reference.com )

8. a time considered as propitious or opportune

it does NOT mean:

1. the 24-hour mean solar day
2. the 12-hour (average) daylight time
3. the 48-hour day (which dictionary.reference.com isn't aware of?)
(at one point on the earth a day is 24 hours long; at all points on
earth a specific date /such as 04 Sept 2006/ lasts for 48 hours)
4. the 8-hour (nominal) work day

Nothing I've said about eschatology denies the verses quoted above.
In fact, my eschatology includes those verses. I believe that
the LAST DAY & DAY OF CHRIST & DAY OF THE LORD
& Daniel's 70th week (7-years) all describe the same time.

BTW, if I ever wrote an eschatological book the penultimate chapter
will have the title "EVENTS AFTER THE LAST DAY"