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A Question for Calvinists

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by rlvaughn, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    The following is for BB members who identify themselves as Calvinists. I know non-Calvinists won't agree, so you comments will be immaterial to me.

    English clergyman Tobias Crisp (1600–1643) wrote: "An elect person is not in a condemned state while an unbeliever; and should he happen to die before God calls him to believe, he would not be lost." (Tobias Crisp, Works, Vol. 2)

    Agree or disagree? Why or why not?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I agree with Tobias Crisp if we are looking at his statement eschatologically. The Elect have always been predestined to be in Christ (Ephesians 1:4). In that sense, no elect person is in a condemned state. If we are looking at the state of the Elect prior to coming to Christ, they are children of wrath while in their state of unbelief. Consider what Paul writes in Ephesians 2:

    Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (emphasis mine)

    So, I guess it depends on whether you are asking and answering the question with the eschaton in mind or in-time.
     
  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, and I think Tobias missed a few things in God's word:

    "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 )
    Unless the miraculous act of making a person born again takes place, they will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
    Death before that means they cannot enter in.

    " But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
    ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 )
    All of God's children will come to repentance.

    Only those that have believed will not perish ( John 3:16, etc. )
    The "whosoever believeth" means just that.

    Those are a few.
     
    #3 Dave G, Jul 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree. Scripture never refers to a lost man as being elect. At the same time the elect are chosen from the foundation of the earth.

    The error comes about when we take the latter and via philosophy arrive at the former.

    As @SovereignGrace pointed out elsewhere, the act of God electing (choosing) is anthropomorphic. God is eternal, not finite. We understang God as He revealed Himself to us in human term . We have to stick very close to Scripture in what we affirm.
     
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  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I need to offer a correction to my earlier post. I failed to read Tobias Crisp's statement fully. I thought I read whether an elect person is ever in a condemned state. I failed to read the part about dying before God calls him to believe.

    All Elect people will come to faith in Christ. However, the framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith recognized a category of people who are unable to respond to the outward call of the Gospel:

    10.3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
    ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

    I am in agreement with this part of the 1689.

    My apologies for jumping the gun too quickly in my earlier reply.
     
  6. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I will give more context if I find it, but have not found anything yet. This was quoted approvingly by a friend of mine trying to make a point, but I think Crisp missed the theological boat.
     
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