A Question for the Calvinist among us...

They will probably come back with "Adam and Eve" were "elect" and "regenerated" while this statement was made.

 

I'm not a total Calvinist as I do believe in free will, however you raise an interesting question. Man's death was a spiritual death. Man was innocent like a baby and was not intended to know good and evil (or eat of the tree there of). How does Calvin describe this death?

 

Calvinist do not believe that man can do no "good" they believe he is unable to do spiritual good. A man can give a million dollars to a charity which many people will view as good, but if that gift was not given out of a love for the Lord than that deed was not good in God's eyes. Calvinists believe that the good a person does is out of a desire to fulfill some selfish desire inside themselves, to make them selves look good, feel better about themselves whatever, but man does not and is uncapable of doing any good out of a love for the Lord until He has been regenerated and given a new heart and desire... namely pleasing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

What do you think God (who is Spirit) meant when He said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil..." There is only one kind of good and evil in God's eye. This text is clear that man is not "dead" in a corpse sense, but that the soul is separated from God (spiritual death) in the same way the soul is separated from the body when we die (physical death).

You think He was referring to charity?:laugh:

 

This doesn't really address the main issue of concern being expressed in this thread. On what grounds do Calvinist conclude that the hearing of God's powerful gospel truth is not sufficient in and of itself to lead a man to faith? We all agree that "on his own" a man would not seek God or understand the secret mysteries of His Kingdom, but what is too say that man who hears those truths explained clearly to them in their own human language couldn't respond to them in faith? I see nothing in scripture which would lead anyone to conclude that the gospel, "the power of God unto salvation," is alone insufficient to lead a fallen man to faith and repentance. Where does the scripture ever say that regeneration is required and irresistably draws men to faith?

 

Just because God is a spirit does not mean that the good and bad spoken of here is ONLY spiritual. Also God is talking about ADAM not all man. Adam had a different relationship with God then we do. Adam actually fellowshipped with God we have not. What happened to man directly after the fall it went down hill quite fast. When it says " Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil" it is not saying we can' t now know good and evil we can, we are just unable to desire good. Our desires have now turned to things of the flesh instead of things of the spirit. We are now slaves to our desire to disobey God, starting with the Tree of Knowledge.


You think charity from an unbeliever is a "GOOD" act in God's eyes?:laugh:

 

Quite a twist of the Scriptures don't you think?

 

DorthyMontine asked:

If man is as dead as I understand the Calvinist to teach, then how can he know good?

Note that the verse that you quoted doesn't say "man" knows good, it says that "the man" knows good. God is speaking specifically of Adam.

Having been sinless prior to the Fall, Adam had direct, experiential knowledge of good. When he sinned, he had direct, experiential knowledge of evil. God's statement is literally true: the man knew good and evil. What's the problem?

 

Was Adam spiritually dead after the fall or not?

 

sin covered by God

v.21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

The first sacrifice and covering for sin provided by God for Adam and Eve.

In verse 23 you referred to their sins had just been covered by God by the shedding of blood. "For without the shedding of blood there is no remission" Heb 9:22

 

Well lets see; Adam sinned and brought death on himself and all mankind, but when he eat and knew good and evil it was just to himself. hmmmmm

Didn't say anything about remission just talking about knowing good and evil.

 

While I agree that if we were left to ourselves we would never desire or seek after the things of God, but since God didn't leave us to ourselves and sent Christ, the apostles, the gospel and the Holy Spirit, then we must address this question: Can fallen men desire to believe and follow God once confronted by the powerful life-changing truth of the gospel? Certainly scripture's demands for men to have faith implies the ability is inherent. What passages would lead one to conclude otherwise?

Anything done in faith pleases God and therefore could be deemed as "GOOD" in God's sight. "Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness." Is there something scripturally which tells us faith in God is not within a lost man's capasity. What about the men and women who "feared" or "worshipped" God even before hearing about and being baptized in Jesus' name all throughout the book of Acts? Lost men with faith. Was this faith not "good?"

 

The problem is that what he should have asked is that how could Adam know the difference to judge between good and evil if he was not regenerated/dead in tresspasses and sins, of which he was dead in tresspasses and sins needing regeneration.

The question I always have for the Calvinist, "How was anyone holy and without blame that wasn't "in Him" before he was "in Him"? Eph 1:4

He asks a good question, that is if i read him right.raise: :Fish: raise:

 

Adam did try to hide himself didn't he, well he must of been able to do something about the evil part.

 

And since Adam and Eve both tried to cover their nakedness, they MUST have been alive enough to respond to the conviction they felt for that nakedness. So for the Calvinist to say that a dead man cannot respond to the convicting power of God is moot.

Jesus is as a Lamb slain before the foundations of the world. Why did God have to shed the blood of animals to cover Adam and Eve since Jesus was already as the Lamb slain?

Seems Calvinism has too many holes to float for very long.raying:

 

I think Romans 1 also makes it quite clear that lost people can have a clear knowledge of God's "invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature" and for that reason stand before God "without excuse."

Moreover, chapter 2 goes on to show that all men are born with the law of God written on their hearts and is their "conscience" so that they do know good from evil. It's only when this conscience becomes calloused that God's self-revelations become ineffective in persuading repentance.

 

Stop! Quit making sense! You know corpses cannot "clearly see" and "understand" God's attributes through what He has made!

 

changed my mind.

 

:laugh:

:thumbs: