A question for the Calvinists

[Allan]

Here's why they "refused": DT. 29:4, "But to this day, the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that can see or ears that can hear."

They didn't refuse to believe because they wanted eternal separation from God or his wrath. :laugh: Good grief.

Then you make entire point of not understanding context.

Go back and read dear brother. That passage has absolutely NOTHING to do with why some people don't believe and other do. Nothing. It is actaully refering to all of Israel (per vs 2, 10 and others), but more specifically the children of the people who left Egypt, but all of them none-the-less. It is actaully not about why some don't believe (as you suppose) but is about them not knowing/understanding till that day God's desire both for and towards them.

In fact, if you will keep reading you will find that some of those very people who were given hearts to understand, eyes to see, and ears to hear with, will turn their hearts away to go after other Gods and when they do they will be cursed.

Also, I notice you didn't touch my question

 

[Carico]

Wrong. Only those to whom God gives understanding can believe as 1 Corinthians 2:14, MT. 11:25-27, John 6:64 and many other verses tell us.

It's no coincidence that Saul turned away from God when God took away the Holy Spirit from Saul and sent him an evil Spirit any more than it's a coincidence that Satan entered Judas so Judas could betray Christ.

 

[Dan V.]

He didn't say that, he said 'makes' or to 'force' someone to believe.

I will give Jauthor credit though, he at least is one of the few who will state that God does indeed force men to believe.

Everyone using the word 'force' or 'make us believe' begs the question. God changes the heart. He replaced our stony hearts with a heart of flesh. Not a complicated concept!

DV

 

[Dan V.]

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

His sheep hear and follow. That is belief...so you and kyredneck are both wrong

Webdog - how do you account for your saving faith? No circular answers please!

DV

 

[Dan V.]

Like I said, in context it is dealing with Israel and God's choice to choose His people from whichever line He so wished.

Uh...Webdog...was not Esau a descendent of Abraham? Was Jacob?

DV

 

[Carico]

Everyone using the word 'force' or 'make us believe' begs the question. God changes the heart. He replaced our stony hearts with a heart of flesh. Not a complicated concept!

DV

Amen. :godisgood:

 

[Allan]

Wrong. Only those to whom God gives understanding can believe as 1 Corinthians 2:14, MT. 11:25-27, John 6:64 and many other verses tell us.

RIGHT! Go back and read the context. Context, Context, Context. Period!
Of course no one has understanding unless God gives it to them, no one is denying that. What is being stated is that God allows all men to choose to believe. We find this in Rom 1:1-32, in the fact that Jesus is the light that enlightens the whole world, and the fact that the Spirit of God is sent forth to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come (all of which are spiritual truths and found to be exactly what is revealed to the unsaved in Rom 1 not to mention 2 Thes 2:10-12)

It's no coincidence that Saul turned away from God when God took away the Holy Spirit from Saul and sent him an evil Spirit any more than it's a coincidence that Satan entered Judas so Judas could betray Christ.

Who said anything about a coincidence? However:
If the Spirit of God was upon Saul then Saul was saved but in disobedience and is why the Spirit left him and another sent. Paul himself had a messenger from satan sent to buffet him (his thorn in the flesh) but not for the same reasons a Saul. It was sent to humble him. Judas was already in unbelief before Satan possessed him.

 

[Allan]

Everyone using the word 'force' or 'make us believe' begs the question. God changes the heart. He replaced our stony hearts with a heart of flesh. Not a complicated concept!

DV

Acatully that verse is prophetic/future for Israel who walks even now with a hardened heart. (Rom 11 speaks to this a bit more)

Secondly Deut 30:19-20 states if they 'choose life' THEN they will love God, obey His voice, cleave/cling to Him/ and obtain life. Kinda different huh?

 

[Rippon]

God saves, He doesn't believe for us or make us believe.

He causes us to believe. He doesn't use, or need to use violent force to turn someone's heart toward Himself.

If He does, He also makes us sin as well.

Since He cause certain ones to turn toward Himself -- how does that logically follow that the Lord makes us sin as well? That doesn't make any sense.

What you state is pelagianism.

How in the world is that Pelagianism? Cite something from the works of Pelagius that supports your claim.

 

[Dan V.]

Acatully that verse is prophetic/future for Israel who walks even now with a hardened heart. (Rom 11 speaks to this a bit more)

Secondly Deut 30:19-20 states if they 'choose life' THEN they will love God, obey His voice, cleave/cling to Him/ and obtain life. Kinda different huh?

We (the church) are the Israel of God (Galations). Even so, If ethnic Jews embrace Christ as Messiah now, wouldn't it be it as many individuals whom God would give a heart of flesh?

DV

 

[Allan]

We (the church) are the Israel of God (Galations).

Well, that is one opinion.

Even so, If ethnic Jews embrace Christ as Messiah now, wouldn't it be it as many individuals whom God would give a heart of flesh?

DV

Not when you understand the passage is speaking prophetically with respect to Israel's hardened hearts, due to God's judgment against them for their unbelief and eventually God taking the veil away from His people Israel.
If you keep the context of the passages from either Ezk 11 or 36, this event can not be until Christ comes back and all of Israel (ethnic Israel) is saved.

 

[Carico]

Well, that is one opinion.

No it's not, it's scripture and scripture is not a human opinion, it comes from God Himself. Most specifically; Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:29 & Ephesians 3:6.

 

[webdog]

No it's not, it's scripture and scripture is not a human opinion, it comes from God Himself. Most specifically; Romans 9:6-9, Galatians 3:29 & Ephesians 3:6.

No...your opinion is not's God's opinion...I would be very leery in claiming God's mind. It is YOUR interpretation of God's Word.

 

[webdog]

Uh...Webdog...was not Esau a descendent of Abraham? Was Jacob?

DV

Yes...point?

 

[webdog]

Webdog - how do you account for your saving faith? No circular answers please!

DV

The same way everyone else of faith came to faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

No...your opinion is not's God's opinion...I would be very leery in claiming God's mind. It is YOUR interpretation of God's Word.

If everything is everyone's own interpretation of God's Word, then can anyone know for sure they know the truth?

 

[webdog]

He causes us to believe. He doesn't use, or need to use violent force to turn someone's heart toward Himself.

Then the flipside also has to be true...He causes us to not believe. So much for responsibility.

Since He cause certain ones to turn toward Himself -- how does that logically follow that the Lord makes us sin as well? That doesn't make any sense.

When dealing with freedom, it makes perfect sense. We are either free to come, or we are not. If we are not, we are also not free to reject as well. Words have meanings.

How in the world is that Pelagianism? Cite something from the works of Pelagius that supports your claim.

Please follow along. The strawman was pelagianism.

 

[webdog]

If everything is everyone's own interpretation of God's Word, then can anyone know for sure they know the truth?

To each person...yes, based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed...but I would never claim my interpretation of God's Word IS God's Word.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

To each person...yes, based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed...but I would never claim my interpretation of God's Word IS God's Word.

I am not sure I understand your answer. How does a person know they have the truth when reading God's Word, and not just their own interpretation?

 

[DHK]

I am not sure I understand your answer. How does a person know they have the truth when reading God's Word, and not just their own interpretation?

Good question. Why not start another thread on it. This one needs to be closed having reached a length of over 30 pages.