Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
Ephesians 1 says he predestined us by Jesus.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Who was the firstborn among many brethren? Is this talking about Jesus?
And in the next verse of Romans it speaks in a past tense
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
So why would it be talking about us? And who are the ones already predestinated, justified, and glorified?
Chrys.
First we need to establish that Paul is speaking to those that can listen from a position of having been saved already. How can we scripturally do that. For that, let’s go back to the beginning of chapter 8:
Rom 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation
“to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”.
To them that are in Christ Jesus; a euphemism for one that is saved. Shall we proceed to verse 4?
Rom 8:4
4 That the righteousness of
the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (KJV)
Who are the “us”? Those that are identified in verse 1. In verse 5 through 13, Paul speaks to those that are saved
concerning those that are not saved.
Rom 8:5-13
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
In verse 14, the focus shifts back to the condition of those that are saved. Verse 14 through 27 deal with the blessings belonging to those that are saved.
Rom 8:14-28
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Now, consider that the focus has not changed, it is the blessings of believers that are being discussed. So we know that Paul is still addressing the blessings of saved individuals as we proceed into verse 28:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God. Calvinism acknowledges that only those that are saved love Our Lord. So no one should have a problem admitting that these passages are directed to those that are saved: It is directed to them who are the called according to his purpose. We now have to seek and be careful to understand what that purpose is.
Rom 8:29-31
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
For whom he did foreknow: Foreknow, a euphemism for a personal relationship. Adam “Knew Eve”, and little Cain was born. For whom he did Foreknow/have a personal relationship with; he also did predestinate. What event predestinated? Does it say salvation? It says that those that he has a personal relationship with are predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.
PREDESTINATED TO BE CONFORMED INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON”. These words are spoken to and applicable to those that are saved. They were already saved, that we have already establish beyond a scriptural doubt .
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Moreover/in addition to what has already been said; whom he did predestinate (to be conformed into the image of his son) them he also called. Called to live separated and holy lives. And whom he called, them he also justified. (Declared to be holy) And those that he declared to be holy, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Anybody got any objections. Won’t do you any good, If God be for us, who can stand against us?
Now, on to Ephesians.
Eph 1:3-13
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: Our “Lord” Jesus Christ establishes submission, something that a totally depraved person will not do. Establishes the existence of salvation.
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
According as he hath chosen “us” in him before the foundations of the world. Chosen “us” in him that we may be without blame before him in love. He has chosen before the foundations of the world that we (Us) should be holy and without blame as we stand before him in love.
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Having determined that we should be adopted as children, according to the good pleasure of his will. What is the good pleasure of his will? That we should be adopted as children.
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
He did this to the praise and glory of his grace. For it is within his Grace that he made us acceptable and beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins”, our forgiveness comes through Christ according to the riches of his grace.
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
What is that good pleasure that he has purposed (decided) all by himself
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
What is that purpose, the answer is given in Romans, it is that Christ might be the first born of many sons: And;
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
NOTHING ABOUT EFFICACIOUS GRACE, IRRESISTIBLE GRACE, OR SALVATIONAL PREDESTINATION. WHAT IS PREDESTINATED? THAT WE SHALL BE CONFORMED INTO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON THAT HE MIGHT BE THE FIRSTBORN OF MANY SONS TO THE PRAISE AND GLORY OF CHRIST ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL…..
[ October 23, 2002, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
