A serious issue

[Sam_the_Brave]

This is a VERY challenging question put to me by a friend. I couldn't answer it, and I'm not sure even a skilled theologian could do so.

Some children were playing a game and became trapped in an airtight container. All of them suffocated, and it must have been horrendous. It blew a hole through their family forever.

Now, my friend said that God must have known what was happening. Must have known that those kids were trapped. How come there was no intervention? (If you or I, or any sane person had known this, we would have acted straight away.)

As I said, I had no answer to give.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Luke 13:1-5

"About this time Jesus was informed that Pilate had murdered some people from Galilee as they were offering sacrifices at the Temple. “Do you think those Galileans were worse sinners than all the other people from Galilee?” Jesus asked. “Is that why they suffered? Not at all! And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God. And what about the eighteen people who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them? Were they the worst sinners in Jerusalem? No, and I tell you again that unless you repent, you will perish, too.”

Genesis 18:25

"Surely you wouldn’t do such a thing, destroying the righteous along with the wicked. Why, you would be treating the righteous and the wicked exactly the same! Surely you wouldn’t do that! Should not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?”

Romans 3:4

"By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

Isaiah 55:8-9

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Deuteronony 32:4

He is the Rock, His work is perfect; all His ways are just. A God of faithfulness without injustice, righteous and upright is He.

No matter WHAT happens in this sinful, wicked and evil world, even to babies and people who cannot defend themselves. We must NEVER EVER question the Goodness and Justice of our Great God! There are many Christians who really do suffer greatly; many were thrown to the lions in the early Church and eaten alive, many were burned alive, etc, etc. YET in ALL of these things, our God is 100% Righteous and Just and knows fully why these things happen, and He ALONE know WHY He "allows" these to happen.

 

[Sam_the_Brave]

No matter WHAT happens in this sinful, wicked and evil world, even to babies and people who cannot defend themselves. We must NEVER EVER question the Goodness and Justice of our Great God! There are many Christians who really do suffer greatly; many were thrown to the lions in the early Church and eaten alive, many were burned alive, etc, etc. YET in ALL of these things, our God is 100% Righteous and Just and knows fully why these things happen, and He ALONE know WHY He "allows" these to happen.

Yes, I tried to say something along those lines but was accused of falling back on mystery as an easy get-out clause.
There have indeed been cases of Christians suffering persecution throughout history, but also similar cases when Christians have tortured, killed, oppressed and abused others of different faiths (or no faith). It has even been put to me that the Old Testament approves of the extermination of unbelievers. How can I even begin to answer a charge like that?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, I tried to say something along those lines but was accused of falling back on mystery as an easy get-out clause.
There have indeed been cases of Christians suffering persecution throughout history, but also similar cases when Christians have tortured, killed, oppressed and abused others of different faiths (or no faith). It has even been put to me that the Old Testament approves of the extermination of unbelievers. How can I even begin to answer a charge like that?

We cannot have answers to all that happens in the world and what God allows. We are fallen sinful finite beings who can never understand the God of the Bible. But we can tell the world that the God of the Holy Bible is 100% Faithful and Just in ALL that He does and allows

 

[canadyjd]

This is a VERY challenging question put to me by a friend. I couldn't answer it, and I'm not sure even a skilled theologian could do so.

Some children were playing a game and became trapped in an airtight container. All of them suffocated, and it must have been horrendous. It blew a hole through their family forever.

Now, my friend said that God must have known what was happening. Must have known that those kids were trapped. How come there was no intervention? (If you or I, or any sane person had known this, we would have acted straight away.)

As I said, I had no answer to give.

How horrible. When and where did this happen? I’d like to read the story myself.

peace to you

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

This is a VERY challenging question put to me by a friend. I couldn't answer it, and I'm not sure even a skilled theologian could do so.

Some children were playing a game and became trapped in an airtight container. All of them suffocated, and it must have been horrendous. It blew a hole through their family forever.

Now, my friend said that God must have known what was happening. Must have known that those kids were trapped. How come there was no intervention? (If you or I, or any sane person had known this, we would have acted straight away.)

As I said, I had no answer to give.

STB, there are no complete earthly solutions for such a tragedy, and no good short answers, so I won’t try here. Those hurting and “mad at God” usually need someone to listen, not explain or argue.

Some involved will likely suffer not just from grief but from guilt because of oversight responsibility. Atheism certainly doesn’t solve any of the problems presented, but it does remove all hope.

 

[37818]

God holds man responsible. Did God make that container? No man did. Furthermore, were those children without responsible parents?

 

[canadyjd]

How horrible. When and where did this happen? I’d like to read the story myself.

peace to you

Found it, I think. It happened in India. The children jumped into an empty grain bin of some kind. Somehow unknown, the door shut and they were trapped.

Very tragic.

The question your friend asked has been debated for thousands of years. I believe theologians call it “theodicy?” meaning “the problem of evil”.

People ask “if God is omnipotent (all powerful) and all loving and omniscient (all knowing), why does He allow bad things to happen to innocents?” Why is there evil in the world?

The entire book of Job concerns the question of why bad things happen to good people.

That would be a good place to begin your study.

FTR, there is nothing wrong with telling your friends, “I don’t know, but I’ll study scripture and find an answer.”

peace to you

 

[Van]

This thread is about the same old chestnut posted time and time again, why do bad things happen to good people.

First, if you believe "whatsoever comes to pass was ordained (predestined) by God, then God is not good, at least from the point of view of those killed by natural phenomenon.

But if you start out with God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, then did not cause the misfortune.

So the question devolves to why would God create our harsh environment, with accidents, earthquakes, disease, and others misfortunes. The answer, I believe, is to facilitate the lost to seek God as a refuge.

Recall the rich young ruler who sought eternal life, but could not turn loose of his worldly treasure, which (at least in his mind) provided protection from at least some of our worldly hazards, such as a lack of food, shelter, or security. We are to love God with "all" our heart, not share our heart with God and worldly treasures.

One last thing, atheists endlessly create scenarios where God allows bad things to happen to good people in order to claim God is not God.

1) Why did God allow the fall?
2) Why did God create hurricanes?
3) Why did God create cancer?
and the list is endless....

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Yes, these matters are not new, except to the young, which the OP is. The key issue is life. This world is not the end point. Evaluating things as though it is is a fundamental mistake.

Atheism tends to be unable or unwilling to conceive of God at all, except to dismiss him offhand. Wanting to avoid suffering is a natural tendency, yet suffering is inevitable.

We don’t know the full extent of the reasons, as the book of Job describes. The simplistic answer is sin. Why do we have to suffer? Sin. Why did Jesus have to suffer on the Cross? Sin. Not all suffering is due to our own sin; some is due to the sin of others. But there is a sin problem that must be finally dealt with.

And a love that must be experienced in the process.

I wanna know what love is
I want You to show me
I wanna feel what love is
I know You can show me​

 

[Sam_the_Brave]

One last thing, atheists endlessly create scenarios where God allows bad things to happen to good people in order to claim God is not God.

Yes, and though I hate to admit it, the atheist answer is at least clear, concise and defensible. Christian answers rely on convoluted sophistry

I may be young, but I'm no stranger to suffering. .

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Yes, and though I hate to admit it, the atheist answer is at least clear, concise and defensible. Christian answers rely on convoluted sophistry

I may be young, but I'm no stranger to suffering. .

Atheists do naturally raise some challenging objections at various points, but I don’t recall from them any clear, defensible explanation for the world being as it is, or of even being in the first place. They have no reason for life and no solution for suffering or death.

BTW, if the “no stranger to suffering” was a reference to my post, my comment was about responses to objections, not experiences of suffering.

 

[Sam_the_Brave]

But the atheist Sam Harris provides some VERY challenging objections and persuasive solutions. As you can see, I'm having problems again, and I envy people their clarity.

Wonder if anyone is going to ask me what my suffering entailed?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

...Wonder if anyone is going to ask me what my suffering entailed?

Since it sounds like you'd like to share, I'm asking.

 

[Sam_the_Brave]

I was seriously abused in the church.

 

[canadyjd]

But the atheist Sam Harris provides some VERY challenging objections and persuasive solutions. As you can see, I'm having problems again, and I envy people their clarity....?

May I suggest you spend time studying the Bible and Christian authors on these subjects before studying the atheist Sam Harris?

A solid biblical foundation will protect you from the uncertainty you have expressed.

peace to you

 

[Sam_the_Brave]

May I suggest you spend more time studying Christian authors on these subjects before studying the atheist Sam Harris?

A solid biblical foundation will protect you from the uncertainty you have expressed.

Well, I find it raises many, many more issues. What am I to make of passages that order the extermination of unbelievers?

 

[canadyjd]

Well, I find it raises many, many more issues. What am I to make of passages that order the extermination of unbelievers?

I’ve read through the Bible several times. Haven’t seen any orders to exterminate unbelievers. Maybe you could be more specific?

peace to you

 

[Sam_the_Brave]

I’ve read through the Bible several times. Haven’t seen any orders to exterminate unbelievers. Maybe you could be more specific?

Joshua 6:21
Deuteronomy 13:6 8-15
Deuteronomy 20

 

[canadyjd]

Joshua 6:21
Deuteronomy 13:6 8-15
Deuteronomy 20

These are not orders to “exterminate unbelievers.”

God’s order to the Hebrew people to utterly destroy their enemies as they claimed the land God had promised was to prevent idolatry from taking hold in their culture.

They didn’t follow God’s command, idolatry came in, and the people suffered greatly, including human sacrifice of infants.

peace to you