A strict 5-point Calvinist God is not worthy of worship...

[Ray Berrian]

Matt Black,

I see two basic points in Psalm 139. God speaks of His omnipresence and David refers to his being created in the life and body of his mother. God concludes that David hates those who despise the Lord.

 

[Matt Black]

Hi Ray

I was really after the issue as to whether God creates us all or whether He just created Adam and Eve

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Ray Berrian]

Matt Black,

'I was really after the issue as to whether God creates us all or whether He just created Adam and Eve.'

The first creation of a person was a man and then a woman and the Godhead did it. In another sense, He is responsible to all of humans who appear here for awhile through human procreation. We all inherit Original Sin via human generation by way of a man and a woman. I think even though a child is born because of a sinful act, the Lord still has an equal concern that that person becomes saved in this lifetime. There is no partiality in the Godhead. [Acts 17:30b

Humans are not all 'the children of God' as liberal religious people seem to think. John tells us that God says there are two kinds of people; the children of evil one [Acts 13:10c & I John 3:10b & Acts 26:18a,b,c,d,e & Romans 9:8] who come into this world as lost and under his control, and the children of God [I John 3:10a] who through faith, are adopted [Galatians 4:5 & Ephesians 1:5] into the family of God.

Regards,
Berrian, Th.D.

 

[Matt Black]

Ah, so are you saying that God creates some people (presumably the elect) and the Devil others? Sounds pretty Calvinist to me...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Ah, so are you saying that God creates some people (presumably the elect) and the Devil others? Sounds pretty Calvinist to me...

Yours in Christ

Matt

God's word says we are ALL of our father the DEVIL.
Some of us are adopted as sons (and daughters) of the Heavenly Father.
Adopted children usually don't choose their parents. Why would it make sense that in this case we do?
Gina

 

[Ray Berrian]

Every person born of a woman, which is all of us, were born into sin because of Original Sin and we, according to I John 3:10 all sinners are the children of the wicked one (the devil's children).

Only those who believe are adopted into the family of God. [Acts 2:21 & 16:31] Not every aspect of adoption in the human sense can rightly be used in the spiritual arena, just as Nicodemus confused physical birth with the Heavenly birth. And then there are the Calvinists with the allusion to the 'dead corpse' theory, pressing out all aspects to try to prove Total Depravity.

See? Not difficult at all to understand.

 

[Bro. James]

Are we only partially depraved? Seems to me there is a difference between being dead and just being sick.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
What are you referring to is traducianism. Adam and EVe were the result of direct or special creation. Subsequent humans are the result of natural procreation, not special creation. Therefore, technically speaking, God did not create us. However, that is not to say that we were created apart from him. He gives life and breath to all things.

I think you'll find Ps 139:13 disagrees</font>[/QUOTE]I don't think it disagrees at all. I think it is perfectly consistent with what I have said. God uses natural processes in this world. That does not make him the direct author of those things. HE created a world with a cause/effect relationship. That is why it rains, snows, grows, rots, etc. Psalm 139:13 is a poetic statement regarding the fact of God's control over all of life. It does not disagree with traducianism in the least.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother James,

You said,

'Are we only partially depraved?

If sinners were Totally Depraved not one of us would ever have been able to receive Christ. We are tainted by the old nature/Original Sin, but we still have in tact as sinners, a mind to understand the Gospel when preached or witnessed to, we have a conscience and know, as sinners, when we disobey both God's law and civil law. We have a will which can either listen to the call of the Spirit [Revelation 22:17a] or one that will reject Jesus' offer. [Revelation 22:17f]

The Scripture does not say that we are dead as in a corpse, but rather our 'spiritual death' is in trespasses and because of our sins because we are sinners. [Ephesians 2:1b] In fact we are ' . . . the children of wrath.' [Ephesians 2:3c] As sinners they are children of disobedience because of an ungodly spirit from this world, that merges with their human spirit, driving them to disobedience. [Ephesians 2:3]

In Ephesians 5:14 the Apostle Paul tells people to awake out of sleep, and arise from this spiritual death, because Christ is ready to give you light. The sinner's human body is very much alive and has a proclivity toward sinning, which, of course, requires of God giving them eternal death. In fact, before they receive Jesus they are already doomed to the abyss.

We who have heard His Word and believed in Christ are promised by Him, the gift of everlasting life. I do not think that anyone can fully explain this eternal life concept. [John 5:24]

'Seems to me there is a difference between being dead and just being sick.'

Our sins, as sinners, have incurred our total estrangement toward God; to be renewed into His light and life we must believe. [Acts 16:31]

I would not say we are 'sick' either, but in spite of our being tainted by our sin nature, we have never lost our resemblance to the Lord God. [James 3:9] which was written down in His Word approximately 4,400 years since Noah's Flood, which of course, was after the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

Any way, the Lord has an infinite nature, spirit, body,mind and will. Sinners never lose these characteristics while they live on this planet called earth. So sinners have a receptive nature, spirit, body, mind and will when moved on by the Holy Spirit. If they reject the call of God they, of course, can remain in their sins which will lead to the flaming fires of Hell.

 

[Matt Black]

Pastor Larry, the text seems pretty clear to me: "You knit me together in my mother's womb", not "You created the natural processes that enable a sperm and ovum to come together to conceive a new life, and a womb in which that new life could be nurtured through a placenta whilst You went off and did something else".

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Pastor Larry, the text seems pretty clear to me: "You knit me together in my mother's womb", not "You created the natural processes that enable a sperm and ovum to come together to conceive a new life, and a womb in which that new life could be nurtured through a placenta whilst You went off and did something else".

Yours in Christ

Matt

Matt, doesn't your argument here necessarily support Calvinistic Theology more than it detracts from it?

Would God be materially involved creatively in every individual physical birth and not have any interest and a hands off approach the spiritual birth?

Seems Contradictory to me.

 

[Bro. James]

If sinners are totally depraved then nobody could get to Jesus...

This is an unnecessary inference. It is true in the sense that we cannot get to Christ--of ourselves--which is also the plain teaching of the Scripture: "No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him."

We are sinners by nature just like a duck is a swimmer by nature--no one taught him how--it is in the genes--from the first man--ADAM--even if he did not have a navel.

The soul that sinneth it shall die--we are all dead spiritually(that is separated from God)we are also in the process of dying physically because of our sin. That is not the important part--it is the spiritual separation that is eternal without the shed blood of Jesus.

Selah,

Bro. James

[ October 22, 2004, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
Pastor Larry, the text seems pretty clear to me: "You knit me together in my mother's womb", not "You created the natural processes that enable a sperm and ovum to come together to conceive a new life, and a womb in which that new life could be nurtured through a placenta whilst You went off and did something else".

Yours in Christ

Matt

Matt, doesn't your argument here necessarily support Calvinistic Theology more than it detracts from it?

Would God be materially involved creatively in every individual physical birth and not have any interest and a hands off approach the spiritual birth?

Seems Contradictory to me. </font>[/QUOTE]I see your reasoning. I made the point because some earlier in the thread were taking issue with my proposition that God creates some people for Hell; they were saying that the only people God created were Adam and Eve and everyone subsequently has been created by purely natural means. I was taking issue with that and quoting Ps 139 in support.

To follow your reasoning though, I would say that it does not support a 'God alone' full Calvinist/ determinist position; although I believe God creates life (I can read Ps 139 no other way), human beings have their (subordinate) part to play there too in the act of procreation, just as they do in the new birth

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Matt Black:
Pastor Larry, the text seems pretty clear to me: "You knit me together in my mother's womb", not "You created the natural processes that enable a sperm and ovum to come together to conceive a new life, and a womb in which that new life could be nurtured through a placenta whilst You went off and did something else".

Yours in Christ

Matt

Matt, doesn't your argument here necessarily support Calvinistic Theology more than it detracts from it?

Would God be materially involved creatively in every individual physical birth and not have any interest and a hands off approach the spiritual birth?

Seems Contradictory to me. </font>[/QUOTE]I see your reasoning. I made the point because some earlier in the thread were taking issue with my proposition that God creates some people for Hell; they were saying that the only people God created were Adam and Eve and everyone subsequently has been created by purely natural means. I was taking issue with that and quoting Ps 139 in support.

To follow your reasoning though, I would say that it does not support a 'God alone' full Calvinist/ determinist position; although I believe God creates life (I can read Ps 139 no other way), human beings have their (subordinate) part to play there too in the act of procreation, just as they do in the new birth

Yours in Christ

Matt </font>[/QUOTE]Agreed.

What we disagree over is how much involvment does God have in the process.

In the case of physical birth - is he present?

I think you're saying He is - and I agree.

In the case of Spiritual birth - is he present?

I'm saying He is from beginning to end.

 

[Matt Black]

Agreed that we partly agree and disagree on this, then!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother James,

'This is an unnecessary inference. It is true in the sense that we cannot
get to Christ--of ourselves--which is also the plain teaching of the
Scripture: "No one comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him."

We are sinners by nature just like a duck is a swimmer by nature--no
one taught him how--it is in the genes--from the first man--ADAM--even
if he did not have a navel.

The soul that sinneth it shall die--we are all dead spiritually(that is
separated from God)we are also in the process of dying physically
because of our sin. That is not the important part--it is the spiritual
separation that is eternal without the shed blood of Jesus.

Thanks for your response. So what do you do with the nine Scriptural verses for support of God's truth that I offered in my post. You either ignored them by not reworking them, or did you blacken them out in your Bible? Beside your Calvinistic mantra you offered me very little that is near orthodoxy. This is quintessential of people with your mindset.

And as to no one coming to the Father except the Spirit drawing Him idea; it is true that no sinners ever come except the Spirit of God wooing them to His heart/Divine Being. This does not suggest that God ignores and does not knock at the hearts' door of the non-compliant, this group of possible human Electorate.

If you were in a Bible College or seminary as a professor, the students would be all over you with my noted Scriptures and you would be left with a red face; but you might be able to get away with this line of thinking at your church in Sunday School.

Brother Berrian

 

[Bro. James]

To Ray Berrian,

Cannot consider all your references in one sitting. Here goes the first:

Eph. 2:1-3 is incomplete without vss. 4-10, where we find God doing all the saving and the workmanship. This even includes giving the faith to believe. A sinner has not the faith to believe unless God gives Faith by His Grace.

If there is anything good one can do-- i.e. make a decision, repeat a prayer, walk an aisle, have faith in one's faith, etc., then salvation is by works--that does not agree with Eph.2: 8-10.

Salvation is of the Lord. Jesus Paid it all. All the glory goes to God. He could have left us dead in trespasses and sin forever.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Bro. James]

To Ray Berrian,

Cannot consider all your references in one sitting. Here goes the first:

Eph. 2:1-3 is incomplete without vss. 4-10, where we find God doing all the saving and the workmanship. This even includes giving the faith to believe. A sinner has not the faith to believe unless God gives Faith by His Grace.

If there is anything good one can do-- i.e. make a decision, repeat a prayer, walk an aisle, have faith in one's faith, etc., then salvation is by works--that does not agree with Eph.2: 8-10.

Salvation is of the Lord. Jesus Paid it all. All the glory goes to God. He could have left us dead in trespasses and sin forever.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

Two further 'justice of God' complaints:-

1. If God does not create us as individuals but merely created Adam and Eve, and our Original Sin/ total depravity is inherited from them, how can we be said to be personally responsible for our state of sin and therefore merit personal punishment?

2. Faith is necessary to salvation. So how can God condemn anyone for lack of faith, if He didn't bestow faith on them? If you're answer is along the lines of "because of our sinful state", then see #1 above

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Ray Berrian]

Romans 5:12-19 especially vs. 14 points to the fact of Original Sin that is passed along to each of us through procreation. This is the way that God planned it. But praise be to God He made atonement toward and for all of His created human beings. There is a way back to security in the Presence of God. Since He is God and we are created in His likeness [James 3:9] we have to listen to His commands and truth. This answers your first question.

God is longsuffering toward sinners [II Peter 3:9 c,d,e] and has provided His atonement through receiving Christ [John 1:12] that blots out our sins [Romans 5:9,11 & I John 1:9] having been sinners. He has given us a free will [Revelation 22:17f] with which to make a choice in this lifetime to follow and love Jesus. Since the Holy Spirit draws all sinners to Himself when they hear the Gospel, all have the ability to come into the Kingdom of God/the church. [22:17a] The whosoever means that not one sinner can or will be turned away from Him. [John 3:16]

Your post was

Two further 'justice of God' complaints:-

1. If God does not create us as individuals but merely created Adam
and Eve, and our Original Sin/ total depravity is inherited from them,
how can we be said to be personally responsible for our state of sin
and therefore merit personal punishment?

2. Faith is necessary to salvation. So how can God condemn anyone for
lack of faith, if He didn't bestow faith on them? If you're answer is
along the lines of "because of our sinful state", then see #1 above.

The first Adam brought Original Sin and spiritual death to all human beings, [Romans 5:18a] and the second Adam, Jesus Christ, provided His righteousness and the free gift of justification for all sinners. [Romans 5:18b]

The plan of salvation is perfect and forever complete. All God requires of sinners now is to believe in Jesus. [Acts 16:31] 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved . . . '

Jesus justicce is one of the Attributes of God; He eternally remains fair toward all of His created beings, sinners and saints.

Berrian, Th.D.