A true American

Bleah. Litmus tests seem kinda fascistic to me.

E Pluribus Unum.



:wavey: Hey, Salty!

 

Liberals don't like standards or litmus tests except for when it comes to those like Lieberman who stray off the liberal plantation.

Joseph Botwinick

 

That's the problem today. We don't have enough true Americans. God Bless.

 

They dont allow for grey areas. Which in effect is unfettered comprimise.

 

You might be a true American if you don't want to force your religious beliefs on others.

At least, that's the way the first "True Americans" saw it. That's why "under God" didn't show up in the pledge until the McCarthy era. That's why the first "True Americans" declared that the US was not "based on the Christian religion." And it's fine. God doesn't want or need government help.

You are certainly not a "True American", if you think "True Americans" have to follow your religion, or any religion at all. That's why the Founders specifically outlawed religious litmus tests.

They were, after all, "True Americans."

 

A True American

Being a 'redneck' carries negative connotations, meaning an ignorant, bigoted rube. I don't think this is the image we want.

Since "under God" was a McCarthyist era add on, that essentially breaks up the thought of "one nation indivisible", one thing that cannot be divided, it not only ruins the thought, but runs counter to the principles of freedom of religion, I can easily let it go. Our veterans in World War II did just fine with "one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". No one must subscribe to any religious creed to be a "TRUE AMERICAN".

While I have never protested public display of the Ten Commandments, I believe they do not belong on government property, which is paid for by all Americans, including those who don't believe they are scripture. Let's display them proudly on church lawns if desired, but not in the public courthouse. Besides, the display constitutes a graven image, expressly forbidden within the commandments themselves.

TRUE AMERICANs can celebrate Christmas, Channukah, Ramadan, Kwanzaa, or any other festival, even "Winter Festival". They can even choose to not celebrate at all. Freedom is a wonderful thing.

Yes, and you might be if you don't as well.

This is a nice gesture, but not required of a patroit.

People should always respect those who answered their country's call, even if the country was mistaken. I respect the veterans, and I also respect those who followed the courage of their convictions and resisted the draft in a war they felt was unjust. Duty to God and duty to conscience sometimes mean one doesn't follow the crowd.

While I don't condone this, if the flag comes to represent a repressive regime, counter to the ideals of the Revolution, then I can see it as a form of freedom of expression and political speech.

Sharing ideas is very American, and so is listening to others. We might learn something new if we listen as well as speak.

I largely agree with this, but regardless of age, respect must be earned. Just living a certain number of years doesn't make one worthy of respect. Treating people with kindness and fairness, does.

I hope I am your friend, as I could use that dollar! This is not just an American thing, but part of being a compassionate person and a decent human being, helping those in need.

Absolutely, and I might add that I hope he blesses the rest of our troubled world as well.

 

Um, no, litmus tests have a range of color - it's sure not black & white

Huh?

 

I agree and so would the Founders! However most all the nation during the time was Christian, with exception of Native Indians. Whom they looked to bring the word of God to. Atheism was extremely rare, if any, and despised. It and secularism would have been considered absolutely dangerous to society.

You should re-read American history. Also your right God does not need gov. or people for that matter. We need Him!

The declaration declares God, The constitution was singed and dated "in the year of our Lord". Something only Christians nations did. Thanksgiving was declared a day to give thanks to God. Church services were held in Congress. Ten Commandments are in Supreme Court along with other official building. First Congress wrote and constitution has oaths of office, "I swear to uphold the constitution of the United States, so help me God". Many days of public thanksgiving were called upon. Sunday was respected as the Lords day and no official business was to take place. The three branches of government were based upon scripture. Legislative/executive/judicial. The first Congress, while approving Constitution/amendments, reenacted the Northwest Ordinance. Which says in "religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged".

These things are but a mere fraction of what they did.

The Treaty of Tripoli was an extortionist treaty. It language was composed in a Middle Eastern country in hopes of avoiding war and freeing captives. As we could not have survived another war. Adams who ratified the treaty thought all was cowardice and would never have subscribed to this country not being Christian. All records show such.
A few years later we did go to war with the muslim nation who continued attacking our merchants and taking captives. The original treaty, which is controversial, was re-written under our terms and article 11 was left off.
Numerous other treaties indeed declared this a Christian nation as did Supreme Court in 1892.
In God we trust was in Star Spangled banner in 1812. It was put on currency in 1830's or so and is our National Motto. Under God was absolutely appropriate. Further back the Magna Carta declared this land to be for promoting the Christian faith.

George Washington

Like it or not this and much, much more is historical.

I agree. But many early state constitutions did have litmus tests of faith. Which at the time was not considered unconstitutional. Most every state today acknowledges God in it's preamble.

Yes they were and God loving I might add.


Have a good one.:wavey:

 

That's funny... then why use Hank Hill as your avatar image?

 

Hank isn't really a redneck, except in the eyes of Khan.

Hank is more of a suburban Texas kind of guy who sells propane and propane accessories. Now, Boomhauer or Dale, I might consider them a bit red on the neck. I tell ya what!

 

Im not sure where you received you perception of rednecks come from but it is wrong. In fact your description of a redneck could be said of anyone from any lifestyle.

Rednecks are hard working people who love their families, are traditionally patriotic, and God fearing like so many other people.

You are welcome to see them as you want but it is wrong. And if you come to the south you might not want to express that in the open. It may surprise you just what a redneck looks like.

 

You should have learned more about American history and government. Read on...

The declaration is not a legal document. However, the Constitution is. It forbids any "litmus test."

In fact, the delegates at the Constitutional Convention did not even consider a prayer to God, until so moved by Beh Franklin. His motion was not adopted, although some delegates supported an alternative.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=19

In the treaty with Tripoli, President Adams observed that the US was not in any way founded "on the Christian religion." This was approved by the Senate, which at that time was composed mostly of soldiers and statesmen of the Revolution. They knew the intent of the Founders. They were the Founders.

Oh, the Founders lacked the backbone to express their faith? The same Founders who pledged their fortunes, their lives and their sacred honor to make America free? The same Founders who later sent a raid to burn Tripoli? You very sure of that?

Not a legal document. Not on coins, either.

1864, actually.

Not a legal document for us, either.


"...of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensible supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness" farewell address 1796. - Geiorge Washington
Of course. Madison, who wrote a blistering attack on established religion in "Against Religious Assessments, praised religion and Christianity. How could these men be devout, even believe that Christianity was essential to a just society, and yet firmly reject an "Christian nation?"

It's simple. They had seen what happens in "Christian nations", and wanted none of it. Madison points out that established Christianity ceases to be Christianity. They wanted the governement entirely out of the religion business.


Barbarian observes:
You are certainly not a "True American", if you think "True Americans" have to follow your religion, or any religion at all. That's why the Founders specifically outlawed religious litmus tests.

Established religion was legal for states until the XIV Amendment. So was branding and torture.

If you want the goverment to put up the ten commandments for you, or to endorse Christianity, you cannot be a true American.

 

I would add that the ONLY reference to God in the Constitution is the date, "in the year of our Lord", which is a way of referencing the common calendar. It no more means the Constitution is a Christian document than referencing "Thursday" (Thor's Day) means we worship Thor.

 

I agree with everything you said and I am a True American who also agrees in Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speach. I want everyone to know Christ but again with Freedoms comes patience with others, not always an easy task. Not an advocate of flag buring but with Freedom comes allowing it and not just saying it

I also agree that these are not just showing you are a True American but a True Human as all should feels these, whether it is pride in America or you own country

Why is it when someone posts something it becomes a debate and over analized LOL You gota love us Baptists :smilewinkgrin:

 

Hello Galatian and others,

I am not debating what a true American is. I would just hope every American would be true to this country. All share the same rights irrespective of religion or political views.

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That does not mean the Founders and people saw the country or gov. as being secular. As they did not. They insured equal rights and protection but had a firm reverence upon God with this Nation. The nation was founded on Christian values. This does not mean it was founded as a Theocracy. God was not the fear but an "established" religion/church was!

Galatian I am not going into this debate as have done many times through the years. History is history. You can visit the History forum under "The American Revolution" or "America is a Christian Nation and Founding Fathers" for this debate.

The Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights is our greatest documents. However there are many other significant documents in the establishment of this nation. All of which does have a legal bearing in constitutional debate, as each go to original intent. The Declaration of Independence is still significant and considered.


Again some facts and to clarify with some of your statements.

A) The Delegates did not pray at first because it was a debate on schematics and argument of new Constitution. The main reason was in hopes of avoiding conflict between the various denominations. As many would refuse to pray openly with others. I am not going to look through my notes. But one of the prominent Founders second Franklin's continued motion with call for prayer. A pastor was then emphatically designated and the mood significantly changed thence forth. As noted in records by numerous Founders. Prayer continued and continues to this day!

B) They prayed and called for national prayers all throughout, the revolution, upon ratification, after signing constitution, and with newly formed nation.

First act of first Congress was to call for a day of national prayer and to appoint a Christian chaplain.

Many, many other things.


C) Again the treaty of tripoli 1797 was an extortionist treaty. It's language and "terms" were hammered out in a middle eastern nation. Our newly formed nation was struggling and a war might have caused it's collapse. As some argued. Thus a peaceful means was sought. In addition we did not have a capable fleet to send to the Mediterranean.
Adams signed the treaty but saw the whole thing as cowardice as noted in writings to Jefferson.

That treaty was null and void as the tripoli powers continued attacking our merchants and taking hostages. So we went to war against them under Jefferson. At the end of war the Treaty of Tripoli(1805) was re-written, in more favorable terms to the U.S, and Article 11 was left off! As that nation understood we were a Christian nation and we understood they were Muslim. The original may have never been legal in the first place, as they did not receive the same copy as us. Something which is a must for binding purposes.
For and interesting take on Barbary conflict.
http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,041905_Barbary,00.html


Other treaties most definetly noted our Christian heritage.

This was a U.S. treaty with China establishing that we could build Christian churches there and teach.

This treaty was signed purposefully in stating the U.S. stance. Says it all! The constitution was singed in "year of our Lord" is of meaning. It was only done in Christian nations and typically only with significant documents. Otherwise they would have just dated as was also common.


D) THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT declared 1892.
"These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

As was always the view up until some fifty years ago or so.

E) Justice Rehnquist give an excellent account of events and first amendment in Wallace v. Jaffree 1985. Long but good read.

Take care.:wavey: Ralph

 

The opinons of the founders that the United States is not founded on the Christian religion, is the defining statement. They certainly knew their own minds on the matter. The argument that they were too cowardly to stand up for what they believed is laughable, considering what they risked to found this nation.

On the other hand, most of them were devout Christians and believed Christianity was essential to a good society. But they had seen the consequences of "Christian nations" in Europe, and wanted none of it.

This is not an inconsistent position. It is a good and reasonable one, one that has blessed this nation. That we have sometimes not lived up to the ideals of the founders, is not license to do it more often.

The trump card, of course, is the law of the land. The Constitution gives no religion any status whatever, only guaranteeing the freedom to practice religion, and a prohibition to the government from becoming involved in it.

 

Upon which particular Christian values was our nation founded? I haven't seen the right to self-govern in the New or the Old Testaments - or taxation without representation or a three-part government. Are the 10 Commandments considered Christian values? Most of them are not in the Constitution at all and the first couple are specifically not excluded by the 1st Amendment.

 

That’s just it. The Founders would have never adhered to such a notion. What is laughable is how a few people and groups hold up a controversial line in the first Treaty of Tripoli, -AGAINST- a Mountain of indisputable history in Official and Personal actions, Speeches, Documents, and Writings of the Founding Fathers!

Again the original attempts were to free hostages, avoid war, and insure safety of Americans abroad. As the Middle Eastern nations had declared war on all Christian nations, including the U.S.

The importance of the treaties, as the President and Congress saw, was that no war would occur due to religious opinions. “…it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries”.

They wanted to insure we were not the type Christian nation of Old Europe. “Webster” even denoted the differences during the era.

The language and terms of the Treaty of Tripoli were hammered out in the Middle East. Neither President Adams nor Congress wrote the language! They did sign the document, as they understood it to be the required terms.
Nor were they cowards as you imply though some saw the action as cowardice. They simply did what they felt was the most practicable action at the time. History shows all this.



U.S. State Department in regards to the Treaty of Tripoli and the Barlow translation:

Some atheistic and separatist groups to this day try and pass it off a newly discovered document of great importance, HA! Yet in 1931 the State Department found it curious the Barlow translation was/is accepted in the public domain as correct. Despite its known and given erroneous nature.

This is the actual treaty agreed upon in Arabic, with State Department annotations. There is no Art. 11 of course, and contains the letter between the Dey and Pasha. The letter notes the American capitulation and America to be a Christian nation.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796e.htm

For greater detail in regards to these treaties, with State Dept. annotations.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/barmenu.htm


The Treaty of Tripoli, as the others, did not serve America’s purpose for piece. The Barbary powers continued attacking American commerce and taking captives. Thus Eight months after signing the treaty, and in complete refutation of Art. 11, President Adams issued a Proclamation calling for a National day of prayer and fasting to the Lord! March 23, 1798.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=112

This treaty, in regards to the Barbary conflict, was written before the Treaty of Tripoli. It clearly notes and infers America's Christian heritage.
Treaty of Morocco 1786:

The Treaty of Tunis 1797, was written soon after Treaty of Tripoli.

After going to war another Treaty of Tripoli was entered, 1805. There is no such language as Art. 11 to be found. In addition they agree on allowing each to practice his own religion while in other's nations.
Treaty of Tripoli 1805:

Trying to hold up the one line in the original Treaty of Tripoli, as a few attempt, is simply historically comparative to uses one's finger to plug a hole in a damn. Another post will follow in order to properly address your post.

In Christ, Ralph

take care.:wavey:

 

The fact that the men who made the American Revolution declared that the United States was not founded on the Christian religion, is sufficient evidence.

They were not cowards, and they were not dishonest. They said it, and they meant it.

And that settles it.