A Way of Interpreting and Understanding Modern Day Supernatural Experiences

[Steven Yeadon]

I have now seen minor miracles performed in front of me at New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) churches. These small miracles seem very similar to Pagan and Occult practices that have endured for hundreds if not thousands of years.

The purpose of this thread is to offer an interpretative guide for anyone out there struggling with supernatural experiences that may be leaving them confused. If there are any other verses and biblical lessons to be drawn please add them.

For instance, I have seen, heard, and experienced "prophetic songs" that are said to come form a presence upon a person that moves them to make hypnotic, mind-altering music off the cuff. This practice seems very occult to me.

I have seen strings of accurate "words of knowledge" or "prophecies" used on newcomers, including myself, to explain our life and struggles to us by people we have never met before. This makes newcomers to the congregation know that the "Holy Spirit" was there in power. However, this is in fact occult fortune telling that has a history of surprising accuracy, though not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I have heard Glossolalia and even interpreted it myself, both are said to require the guiding presence of a spirit that "inspires" the person. This is a classic pagan and occult practice dating back at least to the oracle of Delphi. It is pagan-style babbling with pagan-style interpretation of babbling.

I have experienced "Charismatic prophecy" in line with NAR churches. However, these "prophecies" never center on Jesus. Also, think about it: God Himself is speaking to His Church for the first time in a systematic way in 19 centuries, and all He does is fortune-tell and fill people with pride over being commissioned in some new and great movement unlike any other? What is this, Montanism?

I have experienced and heard of "inspired writings" generated when a presence or spirit falls upon a person to guide their thinking and writing. NAR people say it is how the scriptures themselves were written. This just strikes me as very occult and very, very prideful for a modern Christian to claim..

I have seen demons that growl, scream, yell, make a ruckus, and much more cast out of people. Sadly this does seem to be the Holy Spirit at work and is perhaps the one practice that we may be able to use in evangelical churches, absent all the deliverance ministry or exorcism bunk. The bible is good enough for any Christian casting out a demon. It seems very sad we have allowed those suffering real demonic attack wander to the Roman Catholics or NAR types.

Now the following tests were generated in another couple of threads to test these kinds of practices and differentiate them from real God-given miracles, real healing through prayer, and any type of genuine experience that may be of God. They are an interpretive guide for those that may feel confused by seemingly miraculous experiences.

1. Does it bring fame to God and not man? (1 Peter 4:10-11)
2. Does it lead people to Jesus? (Acts 2)
3. Does it strengthen people? (Romans 1:11)
4. Does it testify to Jesus? (John 15:26)
5. Does it benefit others? (1 Corinthians 12:7)

Now, all stories I have ever heard out of Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) of real miracles and supernatural experiences were mentioned because they led people to Jesus Christ and salvation.

The story of a man in Pakistan comes to mind. He was a Christian persecuting imam that received a voice telling him "I am the way, the truth, and the light" from out of a bright light every night for several nights. He received this experience as he studied the bible to prove Christians wrong. This experience led him to say "yes" to the Gospel in the end.

Pagans have claimed verifiable miracles for centuries, millennia really. I will certainly give them that Satan and his agents in the occult, a deceptive realm of the spirit of the Antichrist, can work "mighty" supernatural works. Of course, no one in the NAR or occult circles claims to have any ability like the apostles and then be able to prove it in public.

Again, the purpose of this was to offer an interpretative guide for anyone out there struggling with supernatural experiences that may be leaving them confused. If there are any other verses and biblical lessons to be drawn please add them.

I myself can look at my own experiences in NAR churches and see that it was all about being the center of attention while "serving" everyone with "my gifts." It was all about "me" in the end and wasn't a sacrificial lifestyle that combined equal amounts of prayer and study of the Word.

 

[BobRyan]

1. What does the Bible say about the event?
2. What are similar Bible examples?
3. What is the purpose of the "gift" -- according to the actual Bible.
4. What details are given in the Bible for evaluating the claim you are witnessing?

In other words - "Sola scriptura" testing.

 

[BobRyan]

I have heard Glossolalia and even interpreted it myself, both are said to require the guiding presence of a spirit that "inspires" the person. This is a classic pagan and occult practice dating back at least to the oracle of Delphi. It is pagan-style babbling with pagan-style interpretation of babbling. .

If in fact their claim was true - that God the Holy Spirit overpowered them and spoke through them - then it would be prophecy and tongues combined - and the instruction Paul gives in 1 Cor 14 to govern tongues would not apply to it. Rather it would require the governance that Paul gives in 1Cor14 for prophecy - which is nothing other than to test it for false doctrine or true doctrine according to the Bible test.

As a result -- when judged by what Paul says in 1 Cor 14 about tongues --They have it all wrong

 

[Reynolds]

I have now seen minor miracles performed in front of me at New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) churches. These small miracles seem very similar to Pagan and Occult practices that have endured for hundreds if not thousands of years.

The purpose of this thread is to offer an interpretative guide for anyone out there struggling with supernatural experiences that may be leaving them confused. If there are any other verses and biblical lessons to be drawn please add them.

For instance, I have seen, heard, and experienced "prophetic songs" that are said to come form a presence upon a person that moves them to make hypnotic, mind-altering music off the cuff. This practice seems very occult to me.

I have seen strings of accurate "words of knowledge" or "prophecies" used on newcomers, including myself, to explain our life and struggles to us by people we have never met before. This makes newcomers to the congregation know that the "Holy Spirit" was there in power. However, this is in fact occult fortune telling that has a history of surprising accuracy, though not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

I have heard Glossolalia and even interpreted it myself, both are said to require the guiding presence of a spirit that "inspires" the person. This is a classic pagan and occult practice dating back at least to the oracle of Delphi. It is pagan-style babbling with pagan-style interpretation of babbling.

I have experienced "Charismatic prophecy" in line with NAR churches. However, these "prophecies" never center on Jesus. Also, think about it: God Himself is speaking to His Church for the first time in a systematic way in 19 centuries, and all He does is fortune-tell and fill people with pride over being commissioned in some new and great movement unlike any other? What is this, Montanism?

I have experienced and heard of "inspired writings" generated when a presence or spirit falls upon a person to guide their thinking and writing. NAR people say it is how the scriptures themselves were written. This just strikes me as very occult and very, very prideful for a modern Christian to claim..

I have seen demons that growl, scream, yell, make a ruckus, and much more cast out of people. Sadly this does seem to be the Holy Spirit at work and is perhaps the one practice that we may be able to use in evangelical churches, absent all the deliverance ministry or exorcism bunk. The bible is good enough for any Christian casting out a demon. It seems very sad we have allowed those suffering real demonic attack wander to the Roman Catholics or NAR types.

Now the following tests were generated in another couple of threads to test these kinds of practices and differentiate them from real God-given miracles, real healing through prayer, and any type of genuine experience that may be of God. They are an interpretive guide for those that may feel confused by seemingly miraculous experiences.

1. Does it bring fame to God and not man? (1 Peter 4:10-11)
2. Does it lead people to Jesus? (Acts 2)
3. Does it strengthen people? (Romans 1:11)
4. Does it testify to Jesus? (John 15:26)
5. Does it benefit others? (1 Corinthians 12:7)

Now, all stories I have ever heard out of Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) of real miracles and supernatural experiences were mentioned because they led people to Jesus Christ and salvation.

The story of a man in Pakistan comes to mind. He was a Christian persecuting imam that received a voice telling him "I am the way, the truth, and the light" from out of a bright light every night for several nights. He received this experience as he studied the bible to prove Christians wrong. This experience led him to say "yes" to the Gospel in the end.

Pagans have claimed verifiable miracles for centuries, millennia really. I will certainly give them that Satan and his agents in the occult, a deceptive realm of the spirit of the Antichrist, can work "mighty" supernatural works. Of course, no one in the NAR or occult circles claims to have any ability like the apostles and then be able to prove it in public.

Again, the purpose of this was to offer an interpretative guide for anyone out there struggling with supernatural experiences that may be leaving them confused. If there are any other verses and biblical lessons to be drawn please add them.

I myself can look at my own experiences in NAR churches and see that it was all about being the center of attention while "serving" everyone with "my gifts." It was all about "me" in the end and wasn't a sacrificial lifestyle that combined equal amounts of prayer and study of the Word.

There is a lot of power in your mind. What your mind wants to be reality will become your reality.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

There is a lot of power in your mind. What your mind wants to be reality will become your reality.

Could you explain in more detail what you mean and how it applies?

 

[Reynolds]

Could you explain in more detail what you mean and how it applies?

Your mind plays tricks on you. Illusions and magic tricks are an example. Your mind sees what you want it to see. The mind believes what you want it to believe.

I have experienced instantaneous healing. It was not "mind over matter." It is a medically verified fact. God does miracles.
Having said that, much of what is seen today is simply "mind over matter." The person believes they are healed and the mind temporarily blocks the pain.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Your mind plays tricks on you. Illusions and magic tricks are an example. Your mind sees what it wants to see. The mind believes what it wants to believe.

I have experienced instantaneous healing. It was not "mind over matter." It is a medically verified fact. God does miracles.
Having said that, much of what is seen today is simply "mind over matter." The person believes they are healed and the mind temporarily blocks the pain.

Thank you, as far as "faith healing" goes, I completely agree.

I myself was recently faith "healed" and my symptoms all got better, it is true, but didn't entirely go away. The trick was I missed a dose of medicine on accident and my symptoms got much worse for it. This gave me evidence of the truth, which I became convinced of by online ministries pointing out the error in all of this. Healing is "it happens" or "it doesn't." There is no need to keep the faith of your healing to stay healed, as I was repeatedly taught. That is mere mind over matter.

That said, by the testimonies online, for most people, including myself, who have been in NAR churches, it is apparent that there is something genuinely miraculous going on. Something that is openly demonic to the bible.

NAR evangelists often tell people to "follow the power," because any church able to have anything truly miraculous in it is clearly of God and empowered by the Spirit of God. This is utterly unbiblical of course. The trick is NAR churches will send their "prophets" after a newcomer, as happened with me, I walked in and received like a dozen prophecies over my current situation, almost all true. This is enough to convince the average person to stay and at least try out this "amazing" church. When in fact it is just standard demonic activity and occult practice (Acts 16:16-21)

I feel I must combat what I have seen myself, which is terrifying demonic activity all over the place in NAR churches. I must reference the perspective of "power ministers," as I was one in training. In that perspective it seems like you are just vessel for "Holy Spirit" to work through. Everyone seems to know this spirit intimately in power ministry and we constantly talk about how he is guiding us and showing his presence to us. He always lines up in the end, when we discuss our different experiences, as if he is one personality guiding our ministries. Miraculous ability often doesn't come from a nice feeling and walking out in faith, as it is assumed, it comes from a powerful spirit that comes upon us in a pleasurable way. To do any type of high end "power ministry" takes training, not in skill of singing and speaking to fool people, instead it is training to be carried away more and more by this "Holy Spirit." A spirit that manifests through us in other ways like shaking, rolling, fainting, twitching, laughing, coughing, full bodily control, all manner of alien feelings, and much more. If this isn't demonic occult activity I don't know what is.

The miracle that saved me was the disappearance of all these "gifts" when I prayed God just take away anything not of Him. I fully intended to go back to these gifts should they stay, but I was prevented from doing this.

These are the best scriptures I have found to explain the NAR movement. They are often quoted in part by those decrying the NAR:

Matthew 24:21-25:

At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

 

[BobRyan]

That said, by the testimonies online, for most people, including myself, who have been in NAR churches, it is apparent that there is something genuinely miraculous going on.

This is a good point. The over-simplification that everything that is not of God must be in your mind or your imagination - is not the way the Bible presents reality.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

This is a good point. The over-simplification that everything that is not of God must be in your mind or your imagination - is not the way the Bible presents reality.

From the testimonies I am reading, this is a huge problem. People encounter something remotely supernatural like shaking or yelling and then think it must be the real Holy Spirit. It doesn't seem to occur to them at first that this could very well be the devil.