About the Lord or About Us?

[HAMel]

A familiar passage we all have read is Ephesians 4: 11 & 12

11. "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"

12. "For the perfecting (equipping) of the saints (you and me), for the work of the
ministry, for the edifying (building up) of the body of Christ:"

In my mind, the office of apostle ended when the last one of them appointed by the Lord died.

An evangelist was one who promoted and presented salvation through Christ who were "not" apostles. Do we still have evangelists today, as was in the day? Many refer to themselves as evangelists and personally, I have no problem with this but perhaps the folks could be more aptly named "teachers" vice evangelists?

For sure though, we have pastors (shepherds, if you will) and teachers today who should be concerned about sharing the things of God to equip the saints. To often I don't think this happens.

How many Churches have you attended over the years where the Pastor considered himself, "The Man"? Or attended Churches where the ruling faction called the shots? In almost every church I've ever attended, in any direction the pastor desired to lead that involved a vote of some sort, the end result would almost always reflect pretty close to a 50 - 50 split. Why? Because the saints were not, or had not, been equipped to edify the body of Christ? If the saints are willing (having been properly equipped) I believe the Lord speaks corporately. I don't really think the Lord speaks (only) to the pastor and not to His saints when He puts a plan into action that involves the entire congregaton. Do you?

Much could be said about all of this but perhaps this might be the root cause of why so many are falling away from the faith and abandoning their churches.

For those of you who are pastors, do you refer to it as "Your Ministry"? Those in music, is music "Your Ministry"? Sunday School teachers, is that "Your Ministry"? Is the Church really about us, or the Lord Jesus?

Any one ever consider that shepards, albiet a responsible job but never-the-less, is lowly in position? I am of the opinion many churches are missing the mark because of "self".

Consider the varied positions of understanding that's posted right here on this forum. "I believe this" - "I believe that" - "Wrong, it's this way" - "Wrong, it's that way". If our hearts are in the right place the Lord will not tolerate the misunderstanding of His Word or application thereof.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi HAMel

You said.....

“In almost every church I've ever attended, in any direction the pastor desired to lead that involved a vote of some sort, the end result would almost always reflect pretty close to a 50 - 50 split. Why? Because the saints were not, or had not, been equipped to edify the body of Christ? If the saints are willing (having been properly equipped) I believe the Lord speaks corporately. I don't really think the Lord speaks (only) to the pastor and not to His saints when He puts a plan into action that involves the entire congregaton. Do you?
Much could be said about all of this but perhaps this might be the root cause of why so many are falling away from the faith and abandoning their churches.”

For sure, way too many Pastors do not “feed” their Church; But this is not the reason for the falling away that we are seeing.

This is..........
2 Timothy 4:2-4
V.2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
V.3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
V.4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

People are falling away, because they don’t want to be told what they aught to do.

Therefore pastors(who don’t follow 2Timothy 4:2-4), think that they can save their Churches by simply backing off from “doctrine”; But this only works temporarily; unless they are total sell outs and become another Joel Osteen.
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You also said........

“Consider the varied positions of understanding that's posted right here on this forum. "I believe this" - "I believe that" - "Wrong, it's this way" - "Wrong, it's that way". If our hearts are in the right place the Lord will not tolerate the misunderstanding of His Word or application thereof.”

Don’t let this bother you; Because this is the internet and anybody & their horse can call themselves a Baptist.

Now if this was the case in a local Church(and it is in some Churches), this demonstrates absolutely no leadership from that Church’s pastor.

God’s Word, “says what it means and means what it says”(every time), and every born again believer has the same Holy Spirit; Therefore we should all be on the exact same page.
But we are not because of rebellion.

Which brings me to the main reason God gave the Church pastors........
Psalms 68:18
“Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].”

The apostles and prophets and evangelists and pastors/teachers, were God’s gift to the Church, because he knew that we were going to be rebellious and would need them.