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Absolute Christian Perfection
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
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Brother Bob
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1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1Corth. 6:
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.__________________
The above is His words not mine.
I was thinking through all the threads and all the posts, not one of you have suggested that we live as close as we can to God. Each and everyone of you have posted to see how far away from God we can live. Not one of you have given the message to be a good Christian but as you say "live on the edge".
It seems to me that men of God would be teaching to live as close as you can, be a good Christian for that is what God wants. You doctrine that the saved commit adultery and even in the very act and go to Heaven is damnable, heresy. IMO
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1Corth. 6:
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.__________________
The above is His words not mine.
I was thinking through all the threads and all the posts, not one of you have suggested that we live as close as we can to God. Each and everyone of you have posted to see how far away from God we can live. Not one of you have given the message to be a good Christian but as you say "live on the edge".
It seems to me that men of God would be teaching to live as close as you can, be a good Christian for that is what God wants. You doctrine that the saved commit adultery and even in the very act and go to Heaven is damnable, heresy. IMO
Then you haven't been reading the threads very carefully.Brother Bob said:
You have only been reading what you want to read through your rose colored glasses.
You are the one that has demeaned the holiness of God, and brought it down to a lower level by bringing into your theology a dichotomy of sin.
God is a holy God. He hates sin--all sin.
Without holiness no man shall see God. To be holy means to rid oneself of pride, self-righteousness, covetousness (which is idolatry), lying, etc.
But you don't seem to have that sense of holiness. You don't have a view of the holiness of God. You think that He hates only some sins and not all sins.
Habakkuk 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
--God hates sin. He does not condone any kind of sin. He hates sin of all kind. Idolatry is just as bad as pride.
Brother Bob
New Member
A person who commits adultery may go to heaven. He may even go to heaven while he is in the act of committing adultery. His sins are covered by the blood.
What is the difference between a lie (Annias and Sapphira), and adultery? There is no difference--none whatsoever. The consequences may be different. But in both sins you have broken God's law. Sin is a transgression of the law. What some here seem to be doing is taking on Catholic theology and dividing sin up--mortal sin, venial sin, etc. Are there some sins more seriuos than other sins? NO! All sin, and/or any sin will condemn a person to hell. The actual sin that condemns a person to hell, of course, is rejection of Jesus Christ. But Christ paid the penalty for all sin. When one rejects that penalty, that sacrifice, he rejects the only way that satisfaction can be made for the penalty of his sins. It matters not at the time of death, whether the sin is confessed or not. God does not demand that as far as salvation is concerned. It matters only as far as fellowship with Him is concerned. As far as salvation is concerned our sin is under the blood, to be remembered no more.
DHK;
He died to save us from our sins--to grant us forgiveness from our sins. Without the death of Christ there would be no possibility of forgiveness of sins. My sins are all forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They are all under the blood--past, present, and future.
If you say that one cannot enter heaven because of any unconfessed sin, even if it may be adultery then at the same time you are admitting to a religion of works. Your faith is one based on confession, a work that you must strive for. It is no longer by grace but of works. It is more like Catholicism. You must choose: grace or works--Which one.
DHK;
Nothing condemns more than a man's own words.
What is the difference between a lie (Annias and Sapphira), and adultery? There is no difference--none whatsoever. The consequences may be different. But in both sins you have broken God's law. Sin is a transgression of the law. What some here seem to be doing is taking on Catholic theology and dividing sin up--mortal sin, venial sin, etc. Are there some sins more seriuos than other sins? NO! All sin, and/or any sin will condemn a person to hell. The actual sin that condemns a person to hell, of course, is rejection of Jesus Christ. But Christ paid the penalty for all sin. When one rejects that penalty, that sacrifice, he rejects the only way that satisfaction can be made for the penalty of his sins. It matters not at the time of death, whether the sin is confessed or not. God does not demand that as far as salvation is concerned. It matters only as far as fellowship with Him is concerned. As far as salvation is concerned our sin is under the blood, to be remembered no more.
DHK;
He died to save us from our sins--to grant us forgiveness from our sins. Without the death of Christ there would be no possibility of forgiveness of sins. My sins are all forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They are all under the blood--past, present, and future.
If you say that one cannot enter heaven because of any unconfessed sin, even if it may be adultery then at the same time you are admitting to a religion of works. Your faith is one based on confession, a work that you must strive for. It is no longer by grace but of works. It is more like Catholicism. You must choose: grace or works--Which one.
DHK;
Nothing condemns more than a man's own words.
Brother Bob
New Member
No, by the Grace of God I am what I am and His Grace is sufficient to keep me from temptation.
You should try it, you might like it.
Glad you admit to the condemnation of your words that a man can go to Heaven while in the very act of Adultery. yikes!!! Boy, the Grace of God must of been weak in this case. If he says "by the Grace of God I am what I am" he would be saying "by the Grace of God I am an adultereous".
You should try it, you might like it.
Glad you admit to the condemnation of your words that a man can go to Heaven while in the very act of Adultery. yikes!!! Boy, the Grace of God must of been weak in this case. If he says "by the Grace of God I am what I am" he would be saying "by the Grace of God I am an adultereous".
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No, on the contrary it is great--great enough to cover all my sins. But you don't believe that, and therefore are in danger of not making it to heaven. That truly is a sorrowful thought that you believe such. Pride is just as sinful as adultery. God treats all sin as the same. You admit that you are not sinless. Thus if you die of a heart attack, and still have unconfessed sin, you will go to hell because God does treat all sin as equal.Brother Bob said:
It is only you and the Catholics that differentiate between certain kinds of sin. No one else does; not God, not anyone else that I know of.
Brother Bob
New Member
I agree........
Brother Bob
New Member
I like that grahame.
Brother Bob
New Member
The Catholic doctrine is as good if not better than this.
A person who commits adultery may go to heaven. He may even go to heaven while he is in the act of committing adultery. His sins are covered by the blood.
What is the difference between a lie (Annias and Sapphira), and adultery? There is no difference--none whatsoever. The consequences may be different. But in both sins you have broken God's law. Sin is a transgression of the law. What some here seem to be doing is taking on Catholic theology and dividing sin up--mortal sin, venial sin, etc. Are there some sins more seriuos than other sins? NO! All sin, and/or any sin will condemn a person to hell. The actual sin that condemns a person to hell, of course, is rejection of Jesus Christ. But Christ paid the penalty for all sin. When one rejects that penalty, that sacrifice, he rejects the only way that satisfaction can be made for the penalty of his sins. It matters not at the time of death, whether the sin is confessed or not. God does not demand that as far as salvation is concerned. It matters only as far as fellowship with Him is concerned. As far as salvation is concerned our sin is under the blood, to be remembered no more.
DHK;
He died to save us from our sins--to grant us forgiveness from our sins. Without the death of Christ there would be no possibility of forgiveness of sins. My sins are all forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They are all under the blood--past, present, and future.
If you say that one cannot enter heaven because of any unconfessed sin, even if it may be adultery then at the same time you are admitting to a religion of works. Your faith is one based on confession, a work that you must strive for. It is no longer by grace but of works. It is more like Catholicism. You must choose: grace or works--Which one.
DHK;
Bob, your argument is with the Apostle Paul. Not with me. For it was he who wrote those things. By the way, nowhere have I said that it is ok to sin. Just read my words again and ask God to reveal these things to you. What I am doing is setting out a doctrine. I'm not exhorting to live the Christian life. For how can we live the Christian life if we do not understand what it is to be a Christian in the first place? We must first of all get this doctrine of justification by faith alone firmly in our minds. To reckon ourselves indeed to be dead to sin is not saying that we have no sin, or that we can sin with impunity. It is rather to believe that Christ was made to be a propitiation for our sins. In other words as Paul says in the first chapter of Romans, "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness (or rather "who hold down the truth in unrighteousness)". That is what we were before we became Christians. We were under the wrath of God. To describe sin only in terms of those sins we can see is to totally to misunderstand the exceeding sinfulness of sin and also to ignore the fact that sin goes far far deeper into the heart than what we imagine.Brother Bob said:
Now, Christ was made a propitiation for our sins. In other words by his death on the cross (he was punished in our place for our sins in order to turn away the wrath of God) He (God) saw the travail of his soul and was satisfied. Now the way was open for us to be forgiven all our sins by God. Or as Paul says in Romans 5:1
Not the peace of God. That is something else and is to do with living the Christian life. But peace with God. Which is something that God has done to us.
In other words the natural mind is at enmity with God. But now that Christ has died on the cross in our place, he has turned away the wrath of God from us. The way to God is through faith alone. That is the way this peace with God is activated, or comes into effect. For he says again "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" In other words we can stand before God completely innocent from any and every sin. Not because we are not sinners, because we are. But because of something that was done on our behalf by Christ. Now we are in an entirely new position a new relationship with God whereby we are at peace with him. Now that is reckoning ourselves to be dead to sin. To put it another way. Although we are sinners, nevertheless God counts us as sinless. Not because we are sinless. But entirely because of What Christ did on the cross. In other words. God's attitude towards us has changed. He looks at us and does not see sinners. But someone who is sinless. Not because we are sinless, because we are. But because of What Christ did on the cross. Can you see what I mean?
You see, salvation is not just one sided. If it were, then we would not stand a chance. But it had to be Godward to start with. Now Bob, are you listening. Listen carefully now. For you think that I am saying that it is ok to sin with impunity, which I have never said and neither will anyone who has understood this powerful doctrine of justification by faith alone correctly. So, I say yet again...You are listening aren't you Bob. Well here it is yet again. Those who are truly justified by faith and understand this Biblical doctrine aright, will never say things like, "it is ok to sin all the more because I have been forgiven".
No he doesn't say that kind of thing. But he realises the power of this doctrine and so by faith he seeks to live his life to the glory of God and strives to be holy because he who called him is holy (1 John 3:3)
And not because the law condemns him every time he sins. Remember God has made peace with him now and so this person has power to live a life that is pleasing to God and his Lord Jesus Christ.
I remember listening to the evangelist John Bird once and I remember he spoke of someone who had finally understood this doctrine of justification by faith alone and the fact that every time he sinned he knew that Christs blood covered him for that sin. This man told John Bird, "I'm going to endeavour not to consciously sin against my Lord. Because I know that he suffered for all my sins on that cross and I hate to think that every sin that I commit today caused Him pain on that day". There's your incentive Bob. Not to slavishly stop sinning because I think it will get me to heaven one day. Because that is just putting myself under that law that condemned me, once again. No, rather we endeavour to purify ourselves because He (Jesus Christ) is pure. In this knowledge, that we have been forgiven our sins past present and future. And because we are now in this new relationship with God. We are now sons and if sons, heirs together with Christ. For as we read on into chapter 8 of Romans the apostle speaks of our glory in heaven as if it has already happened, because our salvation is that sure. It is ALL him, Bob. Nothing is left to chance with God, because, as I have said before, His glory depends upon it, not just our salvation.
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Brother Bob
New Member
You know grahame, I agree its all Him and not me. It just that you do not understand that I am saying it by His Grace I was saved and it by His Grace I am kept and as my temptations go stronger, His Grace grows stronger so as to be strong enough to overcome my temptations and make a way for my escape so He can keep me blameless and deliver me unto the end.
It is not I Sir, that is able to overcome sin, It is the Grace of God that is within me and for my temptations He made me a promise that He would make a way for my escape.
I am born again and have the mind of Christ and have a desire not to sin, that is my incentive and have the Grace of God to help me not sin. For by the Grace of God, I am what I am. "Can an adultereous say by the Grace of God, I am what I am?"
You quote and pick out scriptures of where we have trouble in the flesh but yet you avoid the scriptures that say who is not going to Heaven, whether they are saved, unsaved, hypocritical, conscious seared with a hot iron or the devil himself. If they are guilty of such sins the Scripture says they will not absolutely go to Heaven. You need to address those. You are siding with some who say they can die in the very act of adultery and go to Heaven. Are you one of those who believe that. It is against scripture. You continue to add we do not sin TO IMPUNITY. Well, you know without me posting the scriptures that the Lord said He will not accept such sins. You need to answer that.
You continue to think that I think I am perfect and that I am living by the Law and have my own righteous. You could not be farther from the truth. I know where my Salvation is and that is the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and as I said His Grace saved me and keeps me.
I am not going to Matt and get the scripture because you know of the woman caught in the act of adultery. Jesus said "go and sin no more". Please read and grasp that scripture. Now you can't do it on your own but if you been born again, you have the Grace of God to keep you. Guess what, the righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us. You think its righteous to commit adultery?
I will say this for I don't understand most of you on here. I understand HP and some of the rest but not the most. How can you worship God and have a church full of people who are guilty of adultery, drunkeness etc.
Instead of giving me a whole semester give me an answer to the following?
1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1Corth. 6:
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.__________________
It is not I Sir, that is able to overcome sin, It is the Grace of God that is within me and for my temptations He made me a promise that He would make a way for my escape.
I am born again and have the mind of Christ and have a desire not to sin, that is my incentive and have the Grace of God to help me not sin. For by the Grace of God, I am what I am. "Can an adultereous say by the Grace of God, I am what I am?"
You quote and pick out scriptures of where we have trouble in the flesh but yet you avoid the scriptures that say who is not going to Heaven, whether they are saved, unsaved, hypocritical, conscious seared with a hot iron or the devil himself. If they are guilty of such sins the Scripture says they will not absolutely go to Heaven. You need to address those. You are siding with some who say they can die in the very act of adultery and go to Heaven. Are you one of those who believe that. It is against scripture. You continue to add we do not sin TO IMPUNITY. Well, you know without me posting the scriptures that the Lord said He will not accept such sins. You need to answer that.
You continue to think that I think I am perfect and that I am living by the Law and have my own righteous. You could not be farther from the truth. I know where my Salvation is and that is the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and as I said His Grace saved me and keeps me.
I am not going to Matt and get the scripture because you know of the woman caught in the act of adultery. Jesus said "go and sin no more". Please read and grasp that scripture. Now you can't do it on your own but if you been born again, you have the Grace of God to keep you. Guess what, the righteous of the Law is fulfilled in us. You think its righteous to commit adultery?
I will say this for I don't understand most of you on here. I understand HP and some of the rest but not the most. How can you worship God and have a church full of people who are guilty of adultery, drunkeness etc.
Instead of giving me a whole semester give me an answer to the following?
1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1Corth. 6:
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.__________________
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What would it matter if you still sin in heaven? According to what I hear is that once saved one is given a blanket pardon that covers ALL future sins. Heaven is future, so why would not all sins be covered in heaven as well?
Brother Bob said:
Garbage. I've said at least ten times, "Would to God that we would look at sin as He does, and turn from it." You just ignore parts of posts with stunning regularity. Go look it up.
You're either lying (which is a sin, by the way) or you are having trouble comprehending my fairly straightforward posts. Why do you insist on misrepresenting things I'm writing? I don't get it.
We do teach that we should do our best to do good...but that good is not good enough. That's been our point all along. We should not sin that grace may abound, but our good works didn't get us into the kingdom, and it's not our good works that keep us there. God wants more than our goodness anyway...He wants our total surrender.
What's with the fixation on adultery? There's other sins as well. And what if, for that matter, you die as you look lustfully at a woman? According to Jesus, there's no difference. All sin is disgraceful to God...He is absolutely holy; thus, All sin is a stench in His nostrils. But it is His grace, not my perfection, that secures my salvation.
Furthermore...whether one dies in the act of sin, or a week after it...that's not the point. You either believe that a Christian with a single unconfessed sin cannot go to heaven, or you don't. Should a Christian have unconfessed sin in his life? No way. If they do, and they die, do they go to heaven? I say that God's grace covers that sin. Is He happy with His saints being rebellious kids? Nope, and He'll punish them.
But if you say one unconfessed sin keeps you out, then:
- Time your death well.
- Live without sin.
- Do the "last rites" thing.
- (for some) just make sure you don't commit a "big sin." However, "little ones" might not keep you out. (once again...most folks do stay away from this one)
Brother Bob
New Member
For the times I missed your posts I apoligize. For the last comment you made I still am saddened.
(most folks do stay away from this one) meaning?
BTW, I don't lie.
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Brother Bob
New Member
grahame;
I went to bed and go back up. It seems to me you are a honest man, but that you yourself are still wrestling with this issue. If you answer me the one question I ask, then I may know for sure about you. Do you believe a man can go to Heaven, if he dies in the act of adultery?
I went to bed and go back up. It seems to me you are a honest man, but that you yourself are still wrestling with this issue. If you answer me the one question I ask, then I may know for sure about you. Do you believe a man can go to Heaven, if he dies in the act of adultery?
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.Brother Bob said:
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
But the Bible says you do lie.
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