Absolute Christian Perfection

[standingfirminChrist]

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

But the Bible says you do lie.

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Galatians 1:20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.

Reckon Paul was really lying?

 

[grahame]

grahame;
I went to bed and go back up. It seems to me you are a honest man, but that you yourself are still wrestling with this issue. If you answer me the one question I ask, then I may know for sure about you. Do you believe a man can go to Heaven, if he dies in the act of adultery?

Bob, my dear brother in Christ. No no, you still do not understand what I am saying, even when I have said it so clearly. I am not advocating that we sin, or that we will have churches full of adulterous people. For they who do such things shall indeed not inherit the kingdon of heaven. Please hold that thought in your mind, so you know what I have said concerning sin.

In fact let me emphasise it in another way. I feel that in some quarters the old gospel just isn't being preached. Nowadays you seem to get a lot of folk preaching and saying things like, "come to Christ as you are". He'll accept you with all your sins" etc. In other words they preach a kind of gospel which gives the impression that it doesn't matter what you do in life, all you need to do is come to Christ.

Now I think that you will agree with me that, that is not the gospel. Well, what is the gospel that we should be preaching? Jesus tells us at the very beginning of his ministry, doesn't he? (Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

and again in (Mark 1:14-15)

Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel

Now that is what we are to be doing when we preach the gospel and I'm sure that we are in agreement there. I will go further and say that, that should characterise the life of every Christian in the world, Repentance and faith. That should be the constant walk of every Christian.

Also I would stick my neck out here and suggest that, that is what everyone else on this thread is saying as far as I can see. Now as I was running my wife to her part time job (She's retired and I'm just coming up to retirement) I was thinking over what you have been saying and I've come to the conclusion that we are both looking at the same thing, but from different angles. Which is logical if we have both believed the gospel from the heart. And this is what I think is happening here. Only I don't think either of us can see what the other is actually saying.

Think of it in this way. Two men are holding up a large diamond which has been cut with many facets. They are both admiring the way this diamond and its beauty. Then one of then says, "Wow! just look at the blue effect when the light shines on it. But the other man, who is looking at it from another direction says, "No, it isn't blue it definitely has a pinkinsh tinge to it". Can you see what I am saying Bob? This glorious gospel of our blessed God is like that diamond. It has many facets. Different sides to it. In this case we are both looking at different sides of the same thing. (please remember not to stretch my illustration too far though)

On the one side there is the Godward angle and on the other side is our part. On the Godward side we read about what He has done. On our side is what we must do. Now I am used to looking at these things systematically and most Calvinists do look at things like that. Now that is how I am approaching Paul's epistle to the Romans, quite simply because that is the way the apostle himself has written it.

What he has done and it is a common method that he used, was to work out the gospel by showing what God has done for us through the Lord Jesus Christ. Then, when he has worked all that out systematically, he then proceeds to apply his message to his readers. And that is exactly what he is doing in his letter to the Roman Christians.

Now that is how I am looking at it. Whereas you have concentrated mainly on our obligations in the light of what God has done. Most of the New Testament writers concentrate on the practical aspect of Christian living, which is what you are rightly doing. This was also the way of the early Christian fathers and it is perfectly right and correct.

But what Paul the apostle was doing was demonstrating how God worked out our salvation through His only Son Jesus Christ. He was in fact answering that question asked by Job of old,

but how should man be just with God

(Job 9:2) This is what Paul the apostle says in chapter 3 of Romans and he spends most of his time reasoning this out and building upon it. Listen to him here

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Can you see what I am saying Bob, dear friend in Christ?

The apostle doesn't rush into a practical application of the gospel immediately. But rather works it all out and shows his readers how God did it. How God could forgive our sins and still remain righteous. This you already know Bob, I'm sure of it. The apostle goes even further still and shows just how God can forgive all those sins way back in the past. Those sins that were committed back in Old Testament times. You get this argument in chapter 3 and verse 25

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

And he gives a couple of examples of OT saints, Abraham (who was before the Law by the way) and David. He is saying in effect that they were saved in exactly the same way as we are, except whilst we look back to what Christ has done on the cross, they looked forward to him through figures and shadows. The writer to the Hebrews devotes most of his epistle to this wonderful truth.

But Paul does not stop there, but goes on to show our sonship by adoption and our final perseverance and glorification. I could go on, but that is not why I'm posting. What I would say though is that we are both approaching the subject in different ways. To be sure no one will enter heaven whose life is characterised by unrepentant sin. For that is a contradiction of the gospel which declares that everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

But, and this is crucial to you understanding of what I am saying (which by the way is exactly what you yourself are saying, only you don't know it), What I am saying and what the apostle is saying in chapter six is that those who have truly been justified by faith will strive to be holy NOT because he is guided by the law in a slavish vain way, thinking that the law will in any way save him. But because he has new life in Christ and new strength, because he now has the Holy Spirit indwelling him. Now, do you understand what I am saying Bob? In other words, our strength lies not in the keeping of the law. But through the indwelling power of God the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, Because we are justified by faith, this does not mean that we are perfect. But nevertheless we grow daily in Christ as we walk with him. For

if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Or a more correct rendering of that word is "every" "cleanseth us from every sin. Now that is the practical outworking of justification by faith alone. That is the Reformed doctrine taught by the reformers and I believe that it is the correct approach to the gospel. The enmity has now gone because of Christ's death upon the cross. This cleansing is a daily cleansing of God's children. As Jesus said,

Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit.

(John 13:10) In other words we don't need to be saved from the wrath of God every day. That has been accomplished by Christ on the Cross. But this is a daily cleansing, a sanctification, of God making us holy by our constant repentance and faith in Christ.

This reminds me of an illustration given by C. H. Spurgeon. I can't remember the details, it was so long ago. But apparently at a certain Baptist convention there was this man who was teaching the absolute perfection of the saints. Spurgeon could not convince him of his error. Then one morning as he came down for breakfast he saw this man sitying at the table. Spurgeon picked up the coffee pot and poured it over the head of this man. Spurgeon is supposed to have remarked that he was soon convinced that this man's teaching of absolute perfection was not true in his case at least.:laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RBell: Why do you insist on misrepresenting things I'm writing? I don't get it…….
but our good works didn't get us into the kingdom, and it's not our good works that keep us there.

HP: This sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black. Show me one post anywhere that one has stated that good works get us to heaven, or that our good works keep us there. Let me ask you a question. Why do you keep misrepresenting the views of others?

No man is born again that does not comply with the conditions of repentance, faith, and obedience. We are not saved because of, or for the sake of our obedience, but neither will we be saved apart from it. The MERCY of God is the only grounds of salvation, but God has required certain conditions of us that are thought of in the sense of ‘not without which, not ‘that for the sake of.’ There is NOTHING meritorious about our obedience, but neither will any man be saved apart from obedience. The unrighteous and disobedient simply will not inherit the kingdom of God.

“Ac 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.” “1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”

So again, why do you insist on misrepresenting the views of others?

 

[Brother Bob]

grahame; I am glad you stuck with me and maybe before this is over we will be closer, who knows. Most don't like my way of standing up for the Lord and turn on me and start calling me names, such as self righteous, liar among a few.

I agree with most, if not all you wrote. I am not sure about the last part, and that is why I need you to tell me if someone can die in the act of adultery and be saved. Obedience is better than sacrifice, that could not be true if there is no "obedience".

This reminds me of an illustration given by C. H. Spurgeon. I can't remember the details, it was so long ago. But apparently at a certain Baptist convention there was this man who was teaching the absolute perfection of the saints. Spurgeon could not convince him of his error. Then one morning as he came down for breakfast he saw this man sitying at the table. Spurgeon picked up the coffee pot and poured it over the head of this man. Spurgeon is supposed to have remarked that he was soon convinced that this man's teaching of absolute perfection was not true in his case at least.:laugh:

Well, if it had of been me I would of whipped the socks off of Spurgeon and told him he was in line for some punishment and I just had an urge to help the Lord out.

Now, that what I think a child of God might do but that is not adultery and such. (I do think this would be the extreme of a saved person)

I don't think the Law gives us life. I think committing adultery which is a commandment of the Law is a sure fact you are not free from the Law and under Grace.


I think Paul put it perfect by his epistle to Timothy.

1Tim. 1:
: Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5: Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7: Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8: But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9: Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10: For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

In other words, if you want to be free from the Law then you have to be under Grace which will help you in your infirmities that you don't do those things anymore.

To say that a man can die in the act of adultery and be saved is what is wrong with our churches today.

In another thread a young man is asking if His dad is wrong telling him because he is drinking ever so often that he is sinning. This young man seems to want everyone to tell him its alright to drink ever so often, and of course they all seem to say its typical of a child of God, except me and one other. I say the Father is right in telling his son that he is sinning and he needs to quit and repent. I think this is harming to our churches today and also believe someone will pay for such teachings.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: It is no wonder why Spurgeon is not on my list of favorite preachers. If in fact the example that was cited is true, it is a clear indication to me that the man was as unkind as he was in error in his theology. He proved nothing but ‘his own character’ by such actions.

I have NEVER heard one individual in my lifetime that has ever claimed to believe in absolute perfection. Even those claiming Christian perfection realize the finite state we are in, and that their knowledge of the things of God and His requirement for them personally change as new light is received. They all clearly recognize that we are prone to mistakes and shortcomings and misunderstandings. Absolute perfection is a paper duck put up by those evidently wishing to coddle sin in the believer’s life, and must in fact detest the thought of anyone living on a higher spiritual plane than they, that in their obviously weakened state, find themselves in, and obviously will go to any depth to bolster their mistaken opinions in their own mind.

Why in the world would not we praise the Lord for a pure and holy walk, rather than try and tear them down and stand as their judge when in fact it is not anyone’s place to do so? Who are we to judge another man’s servant? If they stand holy, before God they stand as such. If they are deceived, God is able to enlighten them. It must be a horrible and detestable shock for those accusers of the brethren to read of the men and women in Scripture that were perfect in their walk before the Lord, or those that were walking in such a way that God saw them as blameless and righteous in all their intents and subsequent actions. I can almost see them squirm uncomfortably as they quickly skip over such clear Scriptural examples of holiness and purity before God. Oh well, such a naysayer will have a whole eternity around the throne of God to instruct Him on the errors of His declarations concerning these men and women in Scripture.

What does require of man? Some ‘absolute perfection’ as the paper duck that some pin up to shoot at, that would classify any misunderstanding, passing evil thought, a lustful though simply entering upon the mind as a temptation, anger in any form, etc., as sin? Possibly we all need to meditate prayerfully on these passages once again.
“Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?” “

Mt 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[grahame]

Hello Bob, my brother in Christ. Concerning the one taken in adultery, in the very act at the time he died. Whether he was saved or lost I cannot tell. Only God in His infinite mercy and grace can answer that one. All I can say is this verse which came to me as I was writing

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor 3:11-15)

I also recall the words of Spurgeon on one occasion. He said that we will all, (that is Christians) without exception be saved by the skin of our teeth. I am more concerned with my own sins than judge another of His. anything else and I commit all to God who judges righteously.

 

[Brother Bob]

What is so hard about telling someone if they die in their sin that where the Lord is they cannot go.

Scripture does not in no way make way for sin through Grace.

Romans, chapter 6

1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[Shiloh]

Bro Bob, You sure hung up on this thing of adultery. Every time I glance at this BB I see you are asking someone if a man dies in the act of adultery is he still saved. It has been explained to you a hundred times and yet you still come back with the same question. I didn't understand it until I looked at your personal profile and see you are 67. If I was your wife I believe I would sleep with one eye open all night long!

"Just as I am without one plea, but that Thy blood was shed for me, and that Thou bidd"st me come to Thee, O Lamb of God I come! I come!

Do I see that hand............yes Bob, I see your hand.

 

[Shiloh]

Now I know where the term "Hard Shell Baptist" comes from. It should be "Hard Head Baptist."

 

[Brother Bob]

Jhn 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.


Shiloh;
Why don't you answer some scriptures instead of making insults. But the insults tell me you already lost the debat.

Scripture does not in no way make way for sin through Grace.

Romans, chapter 6

1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

As far as my wife is concerned. That is none of your business whatsoever, so please don't be bringing her into this discussion. We been married for 45 years and still hold to one another. "till death do us part" do you remember those words Shiloh?

 

[Shiloh]

As far as my wife is concerned. That is none of your business whatsoever, so please don't be bringing her into this discussion. We been married for 45 years and still hold to one another. "till death do us part" do you remember those words Shiloh?by Bro Bob

"I do" however I am not the one harping on the same thing over and over again. Scripture? How much more Scripture do you need? Obviously you are ignorant of the doctrine of JUSTIFICATION! You seem to think some sin is ok or just small but adultry is a big sin to you. Hey pal, sin is sin. When you got saved, and I can only presume you are, because you are depending on your GOODNESS to KEEP you. You still have an OLD NATURE. Maybe you think you don't have one? IF you have an old nature then you are still able to sin! Lieing, stealing, adultery or what have you. you can still sin! You can deny it all you want to but YOU KNOW BETTER! Thank the Lord we have 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The Christian life is a life of continued repentance, humiliation for and mortification of sin, of continual faith in, thankfulness for, and love to the Redeemer, and hopeful joyful expectation of a day of glorious redemption, in which the believer shall be fully and finally acquitted, and sin abolished for ever. If we say, We have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us,

 

[Brother Bob]

1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The Christian life is a life of continued repentance, humiliation for and mortification of sin, of continual faith in, thankfulness for, and love to the Redeemer, and hopeful joyful expectation of a day of glorious redemption, in which the believer shall be fully and finally acquitted, and sin abolished for ever. If we say, We have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us,

So, it is plain you don't believe in the following scriptures.

Romans, chapter 6

1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

We need to change our message to the world.
Accept Christ in your life and then you are free to commit what ever sin you desire and it will not be counted against you. Shiloh doctrine.

 

[rbell]

I've PM'd Bob, and will be bowing out of these and other like discussions. I've apologized to him for my insinuation that he was lying.

carry on.:wavey:

 

[EdSutton]

...carry on. :wavey:

I have quit, personally, for the most part, except to read, for some seem to be doing a far better job of "carrying on", than I think myself to be capable.

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rbell, since you also alluded to the fact that some believe that their works get them to heaven or keep us saved, why don’t you substantiate just who has made that claim before bowing out. It serves no good purpose to make such statements and then refuse to show us who made such a statement and where it can be documented.

I say you have never witnessed any such claim by anyone on this list and may need to set the record straight on that point as well.

 

[Shiloh]

We need to change our message to the world.
Accept Christ in your life and then you are free to commit what ever sin you desire and it will not be counted against you. Shiloh doctrine.by Bob

"shiloh doctrine" THAT'S A LIE! You show me one (1) place where I made that statement. THAT IS A BALD FACE LIE! Others might apologize to you saying that you are not a liar but not me. YOU ARE DEAD DOG WRONG MISTER. You know you can't live your life without sinning and to say you can is deceitful to your self. We all know differently! Personally I believe you need to get saved and stop trusting on your filthy righteousness.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Shiloh: Personally I believe you need to get saved and stop trusting on your filthy righteousness.

HP: Are you saying that sin will separate us from God, or do you still believe that in the end it does not matter what you do because nothing you can do can separate you from God?

If all future sins are bought and paid for, and God says that the sins He atones for will NEVER be remembered again, how can God even be cognizant of them let alone punish you for them? If God is not cognizant of them, why cannot I rightfully conclude that it does not matter what you do, it cannot change one thing as to your standing before God, including but not limited to adultery, murder, fornication, etc? So you say that God is going to chastise or discipline a believer for sin that He does not even remember? Who is going to tell on you? Even if someone tells God about them, is God going to break His Word and bring them up again when He has promised to cast them as far as the east is from the west from us?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You know you can't live your life without sinning and to say you can is deceitful to your self

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Here was a man who in His love for God, declined from evil. If Job was able to do it, why can't any of us? Jesus said, 'If ye love me, keep my commandments.'

If one truly loves one God, one can keep His commandments. If one submits to God, that one has the power to and can resist the devil,

Job was perfect before God. You can be too.

 

[Brother Bob]

We need to change our message to the world.
Accept Christ in your life and then you are free to commit what ever sin you desire and it will not be counted against you. Shiloh doctrine.by Bob

"shiloh doctrine" THAT'S A LIE! You show me one (1) place where I made that statement. THAT IS A BALD FACE LIE! Others might apologize to you saying that you are not a liar but not me. YOU ARE DEAD DOG WRONG MISTER. You know you can't live your life without sinning and to say you can is deceitful to your self. We all know differently! Personally I believe you need to get saved and stop trusting on your filthy righteousness.

So, you been posting over and over that the saved sin and are still saved.
Then you accuse me of telling one lie and I am lost.

Which is it Shiloh. Do you really know what you believe.

And no where have I ever said I did not sin.

Shiloh;
When you got saved, and I can only presume you are, because you are depending on your GOODNESS to KEEP you. You still have an OLD NATURE. Maybe you think you don't have one? IF you have an old nature then you are still able to sin! Lieing, stealing, adultery or what have you. you can still sin!

I wouldn't claim it either.

 

[DHK]

Reckon Paul was really lying?

Yes Paul lied. All men do. In the Scripture you quoted, you quoted everyone of them out of their context. Everyone of them were referring to a specific context. SFIC. I am directing this post to you, I lie not.
Do you get the idea.
I didn't say "I never lie," neither did Paul.