Absolute Christian Perfection

[webdog]

Here was a man who in His love for God, declined from evil. If Job was able to do it, why can't any of us? Jesus said, 'If ye love me, keep my commandments.'

If one truly loves one God, one can keep His commandments. If one submits to God, that one has the power to and can resist the devil,

Job was perfect before God. You can be too.

In Christ we will be perfect (glorified) someday. Here on earth, as you seem to imply, NEVER. That's heretical.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes Paul lied. All men do. In the Scripture you quoted, you quoted everyone of them out of their context. Everyone of them were referring to a specific context. SFIC. I am directing this post to you, I lie not.
Do you get the idea.
I didn't say "I never lie," neither did Paul.__________________
DHK

Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Guess we need another Saviour.

 

[Brother Bob]

Perfect can mean different kinds of perfection.

Hbr 13:21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[DHK]

Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Guess we need another Saviour.

That is precisely what your theology states. You infer that the blood of Christ was not sufficient enough to cover that last unconfessed sin, whatever it may be. So if you die of a heart attack with unconfessed sin in your life you will go to hell--just like the Catholic when he has committed mortal sin and the priest doesn't get there to administer the sacrament of extreme unction. Both are heresy.
You are stating that you need another Saviour, another method of salvation. You have turned your religion into a religion of works. You say you have to help Christ along by saying that you yourself have to atone for that last sin; that unconfessed sin or you won't make it. Thus your salvation is dependent on your works and not on the blood of Christ.

God took a man with a problem with the sin of anger that led to murder. This murderer became the leader of the Israelites and he led them out of bondage in Egypt into the promised land. The Bible says of him that he was the meekest man in the earth. He had learned to control his anger. But near the end of his life he failed once again. He lost his temper and struck the rock in rebellion to God's direction. He suffered the consequences and was not permitted to enter the Promised Land. Anger has its consequences. He was saved, but a murderer, nevertheless.

God took a coward, and conquered a nation (the Midianites) who were described to be in number as the sand of the sea.

God took a fornicator, Samson, to squash the domination of the Philistines.

God took a murderer and an adulterer, made him king over all of Israel, and said that he was a man after His own heart.

God took a man who was an adulterer to the most extreme extent--he had one thousand wives. It was declared of him that he was the wisest man that ever lived, and under his reign the land had peace. All these men were saved men.

God took a persecutor, blasphemer and murderer and made him the greatest apostle that ever lived. He wrote 13 epistles of the NT. Do we dare question his salvation?

None of these men ceased sinning after they were saved. They were sinners. After salvation they were sinners saved by grace, but sinners nevertheless. We are saved by grace not by works. It is either all by grace, or not of grace at all. If it is the least bit of works; if it involves confession of sin at the end of life, then salvation is not of grace, it is of works. Then you have a works-based salvation like any other religion. And like any other religion the grace of God is nullified.

 

[Brother Bob]

And God set up a new and Living way just because of such actions that happened back then.

You said "all men lie"
The Scriptures say "all liars are going to the Lake of Fire".

How do you answer that?

 

[DHK]

And God set up a new and Living way just because of such actions that happened back then.

You said "all men lie"
The Scriptures say "all liars are going to the Lake of Fire".

How do you answer that?

Because I know the meaning of that verse, and it is not what you think it is. You use it out of context.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

But this I don't use out of context. God is true--the only one.
Every man is a liar, and there are no exceptions, including you.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Because I know the meaning of that verse, and it is not what you think it is. You use it out of context.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

But this I don't use out of context. God is true--the only one.
Every man is a liar, and there are no exceptions, including you.

Actually, you are the one quoting out of context. Look at the verse above verse 4 and you will see who Paul is saying are the liars...

Romans 3:3-4 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

It is the unbelievers who Paul is speaking of when he says 'let God be true, but every man a liar', not the Child of God.

 

[tragic_pizza]

SFiC, the book of Romans wasn't written to unbelievers.

 

[grahame]

Yes, I don't know where he gets that idea. It is written to the church at Rome. Not to unbelievers. Goodness me people herte who are Christians have trouble believing what Paul has written, let alone unbelievers. To them it remains an enigma.

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

]

You take this scripture out of context. It is not saying every man is a liar but if its you or God, then let every man be a liar. His word is always above ours.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I know who the book of Romans was written to. But the verse DHK is quoting was concerning unbelievers, not believers.

 

[DHK]

I know who the book of Romans was written to. But the verse DHK is quoting was concerning unbelievers, not believers.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
How do you come to the conclusion that "every man" means only "every unsaved man"? Are you adding to the Scripture words that should not be added. And if you read on into verse five you will indeed find the context is concerning the believer.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, it like you saying all men are liars and scripture saying all liars are going to the Lake of Fire. Which is right?

 

[Shiloh]

Bob.........you just need to study more!

 

[DHK]

Well, it like you saying all men are liars and scripture saying all liars are going to the Lake of Fire. Which is right?

All men are liars. Romans 3:4. That is the plain truth.
In Rev.21:8, it is plainly speaking of the unsaved who have lived lives of continuous lying. The righteous have already been raptured. They are already in heaven. It is not referring to the saved at all.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob.........you just need to study more!

I was wondering "how would you know?"

Why, because I stand up for the Grace of God.

I guess we all do.

 

[Brother Bob]

In Rev.21:8, it is plainly speaking of the unsaved who have lived lives of continuous lying. The righteous have already been raptured. They are already in heaven. It is not referring to the saved at all.__________________
DHK

It it means just the ones after the saved already gone to Heaven the all going to the Lake anyway. That don't make no sense at all.

 

[DHK]

It it means just the ones after the saved already gone to Heaven the all going to the Lake anyway. That don't make no sense at all.

1. The liar spoken of in Rev.21:8 is so called because he lives a life-style of lies. I am sure that in your ministry you have come across some people like this. They tell a lie, then lie to cover up that one, and it keeps on going. It is the kind of person you can never trust. They are habitual liars, deceivers. They live their lives like that.
2. "They shall have their place in the lake of fire."
The only ones that will stand at the Great White Throne Judgement will be the unsaved who will receive that final sentence of judgment and be cast into the lake of fire. The saved will not be there.

 

[grahame]

I cannot understand how anyone can claim to walk upright in fellowship with God perfectly without sinning. Do they know nothing of their own hearts? It seems to me that their knowledge of the character of sin and the exceeding sinfulness of sin and the utter deceitfulness of the human heart must be very shallow to think that sin only consists of those sins that are outwardly seen of others.
In my experience and I can confirm my experience that it is a true experience of a saved person by looking at the lives of some of the greatest Christians who have ever lived, in my experience I say, the closer a person gets to God, the more sins are revealed within their own hearts.

The utter infinite purity of God and His absolute righteousness is guaranteed to work in the human heart in this way. For someone to claim as some do, that God will keep them from any and every sin, is just shear delusion on their part. For one thing it is not true of the saints in the Bible. Take great king David, a man after God's own heart. God's words not mine. Here it is

And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Note the last phrase

which shall fulfil all my will

That was before David saw Bathsheba on the roof bathing. (did not God know that David was going to commit sin?) Suddenly he was met with the temptation that he must have her. And that is exactly what happened. Did the grace of God prevent him? No it didn't. And to make things worse, she became pregnant and that led him to commit another sin that was equivalent to murder. Again, did God prevent it? No He didn't.

But it goes further even than that. When Nathan the prophet came to him by the Spirit of God and reitterated the story of the other man's lamb. Remember that? You'll find the story in 2 Samuel 12.

And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

and what was David's reaction to that?

And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die: And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.

Can you see this secret sin of David's? Pride and self righteousness, disguised as zeal for righteousness. And this made David blind to his own sins. Self righteousness always has that effect on the heart. It causes us to focus only those things that are obvious sins, but secretly cherish those sins that can be disguised as godliness and holiness and righteousness.

He was ready to pour out all his wrath upon that rich man who took the poor man's lamb. There he was no doubt, stalking around his throne and pinacle of personal piety judging others of their sins. No doubt he still thought he was a man after God's own heart. Yet he was so ignorant of the most glaring sins and most damnable sins known to human kind. Adulty and murder. And he was a child of God who had been blessed with every spritual blessing.

Nathan had to point his finger to him directly in order to open his blind eyes.

And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man.

And he spoke his message that God had given him.

Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Now it is important to realise that David was not lost so that he went to hell. He was a saved man. Although God did judge him and because of his sin we are told

the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

We read of course that David repented of his sin. But his sin had forever changed the course of Israel's history.

But the point I want to emphasise here is that God did not prevent David from falling into sin. In fact everyone who reads their Bibles will have to acknowledge that God worked that terrible sin of David's into His own plan for the salvation of mankind. For from the union of Bathsheba and David came Solomon and he is in the genealogy of Jesus Christ. So of course is David for that matter.

So in the light of stories like that of David's sin is it Biblical to imagine that God will prevent anyone from falling into sin? I'm not suggesting that he will prevent people from falling. But what I am saying is, in the light of these things is it an absolute guarantee that God will not allow a Christian who is saved by the grace of God from falling into grievous sin?

And of course that begs the other question doesn't it? Is a person truly saved if they fall into grievous sin? Or is he lost the moment he sins.Then of course that begs yet another question doesn't it? If a person repents is he saved again? and of course that begs yet another question. Is a person lost again if he happens to sin again. What I am saying as well is can a man be saved one day and lost the next, just because he sins? Bearing in mind that sin does not only mean outward sins. But also those sins that we hold secretly in our hearts. For our Lord certainly saw these to be just as grievous as the outward sins. Perhaps even more so, for those secret sins of the heart include pride and envy and covetousness. In fact the sin of pride is generally thought to have been the cause of the downfall of Satan himself.

 

[Shiloh]

Grahame, Bob will agree that he does sin. However he say's there are certain "sins" that he cannot such as adultery. He will not agree that a Christian is capable of any sin. AChristian can lie (Peter), a Christian can murder(David), a Christian can commit incest (Lot), and yes even adultery (ICor 3). Being Saved and eternally secure does not give us a license to sin! As you have written, the closer one is to the Lord the more wicked we see ourselves. I don't think Bob knows the difference between Justification and Sanctification. In our walk with Christ we are to grow up, grow closer, 2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen and the closer we get to Him the more we realize we need to grow.
until, Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: