Absolute Christian Perfection

[Brother Bob]

1. The liar spoken of in Rev.21:8 is so called because he lives a life-style of lies. I am sure that in your ministry you have come across some people like this. They tell a lie, then lie to cover up that one, and it keeps on going. It is the kind of person you can never trust. They are habitual liars, deceivers. They live their lives like that.
2. "They shall have their place in the lake of fire."
The only ones that will stand at the Great White Throne Judgement will be the unsaved who will receive that final sentence of judgment and be cast into the lake of fire. The saved will not be there.__________________
DHK

Once again DHK; you have changed you meaning of the scripture, the other one just didn't fit did it.
Now you have to tell a lot of lies to be a liar. Well I don't think so but if thats what you want to believe ok.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

David and Lot were not Christians.

As for Peter, I find no record of him lying after he became a Christian.

And speaking of David, it was he who wrote:

Psalm 19:13 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

David knew that there was a way for man to keep from sinning... that way was to rely on God's Holy Spirit to guide him. True, David fell from time to time, but then again, he wasn't a Christian.

 

[Brother Bob]

I cannot understand how anyone can claim to walk upright in fellowship with God perfectly without sinning. Do they know nothing of their own hearts? It seems to me that their knowledge of the character of sin and the exceeding sinfulness of sin and the utter deceitfulness of the human heart must be very shallow to think that sin only consists of those sins that are outwardly seen of others.
In my experience and I can confirm my experience that it is a true experience of a saved person by looking at the lives of some of the greatest Christians who have ever lived, in my experience I say, the closer a person gets to God, the more sins are revealed within their own hearts

I don't know either grahame. I haven't seen anyone claim that.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Bob is correct. It does not take many lies to become a liar... it only takes one.

 

[Brother Bob]

Grahame, Bob will agree that he does sin. However he say's there are certain "sins" that he cannot such as adultery. He will not agree that a Christian is capable of any sin. AChristian can lie (Peter), a Christian can murder(David), a Christian can commit incest (Lot), and yes even adultery (ICor 3). Being Saved and eternally secure does not give us a license to sin! As you have written, the closer one is to the Lord the more wicked we see ourselves. I don't think Bob knows the difference between Justification and Sanctification. In our walk with Christ we are to grow up, grow closer, 2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen and the closer we get to Him the more we realize we need to grow.
until, Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Absolutely nothing you quote says or give the saved the right to commit such sins that Paul said were unrighteous and they could not go to heaven, nothing!!!!!

You better wake up, and quit teaching fables and start teaching the truth.

I don't think you know the Power of the "Grace of God"

Titus 2:

"11": For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

"12": Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

"13": Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

"14": Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


1 Corinthians, chapter 10
"13": There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

There hath no temptation taken you (READ!!!)

 

[DHK]

Bob is correct. It does not take many lies to become a liar... it only takes one.

Are you so naive to believe that throughout Scripture that for every word there is only one meaning. (one word--one meaning--all the time). That is not true now, nor has it ever been. Take the word wine for example. Does it always mean fermented wine, or is there cases where it just might mean grape juice or unfermented wine, especially as it used in the Greek?
And take the English word "church" You go to New Town Baptist Church. But because you go there, I assume that is the name of the building. The church is also the assembly that gathers at the buliding that has that name. In the RCC it is the name of that organization. We speak of the church universal, as well as the local church. Is there only one meaning for one word. Or does the context give the meaning of the word. Before putting foot in mouth, I think you better think this one through very carefully.

 

[DHK]

Once again DHK; you have changed you meaning of the scripture, the other one just didn't fit did it.

I haven't changed the meaning of Scripture. I don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps I just didn't make myself clear enough the first time.

Now you have to tell a lot of lies to be a liar. Well I don't think so but if thats what you want to believe ok.

I define words according to their context. One word has more than one meaning. It has always been that way. Look some words up in a dictionary for an experiment and see if all words have just one meaning.

 

[Chemnitz]

I haven't changed the meaning of Scripture. I don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps I just didn't make myself clear enough the first time.

I define words according to their context. One word has more than one meaning. It has always been that way. Look some words up in a dictionary for an experiment and see if all words have just one meaning.

I think I am going to hold you to this the next time you insist that baptism means only immersion.

 

[DHK]

David and Lot were not Christians.

That's a new one on me.
God said that David was a man after God's own heart, and God commanded Samuel go annoint him King over Israel. He was God's choice. His throne would endure forever, and from his seed would come the Christ. He wasn't saved? That's a new one!
Lot was declared righteous by God. Do you deny God, and call him a liar. You need to study your Bible more.

2 Peter 2:7-8 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

As for Peter, I find no record of him lying after he became a Christian.

He denied the Lord three times. Those were lies. That was after he became a Christian. That was after His great confession which Christ testified of him that he received that testimony from the Father, and the Father revealed it to him. Does the Father reveal such things to unsaved people? I think not!

Peter deceived many after he was saved. Your knowledge of the Book of Galatians is lacking. For doing so Paul withstood him to the face.

Galatians 2:11-13 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
--What does the word "dissimulation" mean?
It means deceit or hypocrisy. Peter deceived, and was publicly rebuked for it.

And speaking of David, it was he who wrote:
Psalm 19:13 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

He also wrote Psalm 51. It makes for good reading. "Restore unto me the joy of my salvation."
"Agaisnt thee only have I sinned."

David knew that there was a way for man to keep from sinning... that way was to rely on God's Holy Spirit to guide him. True, David fell from time to time, but then again, he wasn't a Christian.

Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures..."

Romans 4:6-7 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

David knew that his standing before God was righteous, that is, that he was a Christian. He had no fear of going to heaven in spite of the grievous sins that he had committed.

 

[DHK]

I think I am going to hold you to this the next time you insist that baptism means only immersion.

I thought that would provoke a response from someone like you, even as I wrote it.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Lot was righteous... being righteous does not make one a Christian.

David was an ancestor of Christ, not a Christian.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This verse speaks specifically of one who makes 'a lie'... singular. sfiC is correct in saying just one lie makes one a liar.

 

[DHK]

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This verse speaks specifically of one who makes 'a lie'... singular. sfiC is correct in saying just one lie makes one a liar.

So what you are really saying is that heaven will be empty apart from God and his angels. Correct?

 

[DHK]

Lot was righteous... being righteous does not make one a Christian.

In God's eyes it does. It wasn't his own righteous that was spoken of. God made him righteous and declared it to be so. Who are you to question God.

David was an ancestor of Christ, not a Christian.

David's sins were declared to be forgiven.

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
--If you cannot understand the righteousness of God, what can you understand. He was made righteous by God. How righteous does a man have to be?

 

[Amy.G]

Lot was righteous... being righteous does not make one a Christian.

David was an ancestor of Christ, not a Christian.

Well, now I've heard it all. God declared these men righteous. Who are you to question God? Have you read the Bible? I would expect something like this from a baby Christian.
DHK, you have shown an incredible amount of patience dealing with this subject. God bless you.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I not only have read the Bible, but I preach it as well and firmly believe it.

It is a sad day when people try to justify sin by hiding behind a cloak of righteousness... sad indeed.

DHK constantly calls people liars over and over and defends such nonsense as one lie does not make one a liar.

You kill one person, you are a murderer.

Numbers 35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. (only one person killed makes a murderer)

One act of adultery (in the heart, or outright) makes one an adulterer.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Just as it only takes one instance of adultery or murder to make an adulterer or murderer, it only takes one instance to make a thief or a liar.

And it is not works to say man must confess sin before God. Man better confess it down here, because if he doesn't, he will confess it before God at the GWT of judgment.

 

[Shiloh]

Lot was righteous... being righteous does not make one a Christian.

David was an ancestor of Christ, not a Christian.by eagle

Where do you go to church? Seriously! Where do you come up with this. People in your neck of the woods know better than this......go down to MT Nebo, I know people there that can straighten you out on this!

 

[Shiloh]

His Blood Spoke My Name, You claim to be Ind. Fund. Baptist. I would be interested in know where you attend church. I will never know but, IF you go to church in Quarryville you have not been taught the stuff you are writing on here!

 

[DHK]

I not only have read the Bible, but I preach it as well and firmly believe it.

It is a sad day when people try to justify sin by hiding behind a cloak of righteousness... sad indeed.

I don't justify sin, but ironically you--having a similar theology to Brother Bob's--do justify sin. One lie makes a person a liar. According to you, you are a liar and you will be missing heaven. One lustful thought constitutes adultery. According to you, you are an adulterer and no adulterer will be admitted into heaven. Being angry without a cause is murder. No murderer will enter into heaven. You have been angry at times haven't you? According to you, you will not enter into heaven. You have condemned yourself by your own theology. Either that or you justify your own sin. Which is it? Are you honest in your theology and admit to others that you are on your way to hell. Or do you justify sin in one way or another? You can't have it both ways.

DHK constantly calls people liars over and over and defends such nonsense as one lie does not make one a liar.

I don't call anyone a liar, but the Bible does.
Romans 3:4--"Let God be true, but every man a liar. That includes you. God said it I didn't. I am simply the messenger. One of the most common sins in the world is that of lying. I have seen much of it on this board.

You kill one person, you are a murderer.

So true. It is also true (as Jesus pointed out) if you have anger aganst your brother, that you have committed murder. I am sure that that has happened in your life as well.

One act of adultery (in the heart, or outright) makes one an adulterer.

Are you going to tell me that you have never committed that sin in your heart?[/quote]

Just as it only takes one instance of adultery or murder to make an adulterer or murderer, it only takes one instance to make a thief or a liar.

So now that we have established that you are a murderer, adulterer and a liar, how do you expect to enter into heaven?

And it is not works to say man must confess sin before God. Man better confess it down here, because if he doesn't, he will confess it before God at the GWT of judgment.

Again you admit you will stand with all the unsaved at the GWT. If you die before you have a chance to confess that lie, you will go straight to hell on the basis of your theology and will receive that final sentence of judgement at the GWT only to be cast in the Lake of Fire. Death comes fast. A heart attack can happen at any moment, to any one. It is the number one killer in our day and age.
Hmmm: liar, killer, adulterer. That's quite a load of gult to be carrying around, don't you think?

 

[Brother Bob]

I define words according to their context. One word has more than one meaning. It has always been that way. Look some words up in a dictionary for an experiment and see if all words have just one meaning.__________________
DHK

You have your own little mind for explaining words, and that is for sure. Amy must know the meaning too for she is praising you but oh well, the Lord knows all things. I figure people have either did something or getting ready to that advocate such beliefs.