Absolute Christian Perfection

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The Calvinist claims to be void of condemnation, yet claims to sin every day in thought word and deed, or so I have heard. My question is what tells them that are sinning if they have no condemnation?

It would be my understanding that if there was no condemnation, nothing that warns them of evil and selfish intents, that all their actions of necessity would be accepted by God as benevolent and just as testified to them by a conscience such as Paul had, a conscience void of offense.

Is it not the Calvinist honestly the one promoting absolute perfection, a life completely void of all condemnation?

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, why would they feel condemned if all their sins are covered by the blood and cast into a sea of forgetfulness never to be remember against them.

I can see it now, a bunch of drunks molesting women and shouting and swearing, and you can hear some shouting "amen" brother, and bypassers say "those are born again Christians".

 

[DHK]

Well, why would they feel condemned if all their sins are covered by the blood and cast into a sea of forgetfulness never to be remember against them.

I can see it now, a bunch of drunks molesting women and shouting and swearing, and you can hear some shouting "amen" brother, and bypassers say "those are born again Christians".

I am only a sinner saved by grace.
This is my story, to God be the glory
I'm only a sinner saved by grace.

The picture you paint is not one that any one of us has said, inferred, intimated, or even hinted at. Therefore you have lied by even posting what you said.
Repent Bob, or perish!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I am only a sinner saved by grace.
This is my story, to God be the glory
I'm only a sinner saved by grace.

HP: I personally like the song that says something to the effect:

I’m a saint not a sinner,
A winner not a loser…..

 

[Brother Bob]

I am only a sinner saved by grace.
This is my story, to God be the glory
I'm only a sinner saved by grace.

The picture you paint is not one that any one of us has said, inferred, intimated, or even hinted at. Therefore you have lied by even posting what you said.
Repent Bob, or perish! __________________
DHK

I never mentioned your name but do you feel guilty? which of the following can a Christian "not do"? I thought you said a Christian could do any sin and be unconfessed.

drunks, molesting women, and shouting and swearing,

According to your theology, If I am saved I don't have to confess for there is no way I will perish. Have you changed your mind?

Originally Posted by DHK
Please Bob don't take anything personal. i was writing as objectively as possible using the word "you" generically, meaning anyone, not you personally.
I use the sin of adultery as an example because I know that it is a horrid sin in the eyes of most here. Your definition of a sin unto death and my definition of the same are quite a bit different. Adultery is not a "sin unto death," and one cannot prove it to be so. Perhaps another thread should be started on "sin unto death" or even a bit broader as "types of sin." But adultery does not fall there. Adultery is the same as lying. It is a transgression of the law. They are both breaking the Ten Commandments. So what is the difference in God's sight? None. It is just as bad to die with an unconfessed lie as it is to die with unconfessed adultery or in the act of adultery. What is the difference?
My sins are paid for. They were paid for at the time of salvation. They are under the blood. The minute I put conditions on the work of Christ--like saying that the sin must be confessed before I die, then I take away from grace, and my faith turns into a religion of works. It is no more of grace but of works. One cannot impose conditions on the salvation that Christ provided without any conditions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BB: I can see it now, a bunch of drunks molesting women and shouting and swearing, and you can hear some shouting "amen" brother, and bypassers say "those are born again Christians".

HP: I feel that there are many professing a sinning religion that live on a higher plane than their statements allow for. Just the same, when we tell the new believer that all sins, including the future ones, are under the blood, and that they can commit adultery or murder with impunity if they only have faith, we are not only in opposition to the plain Word of God, but fueling the fires of antinomian deception.

They will be about as effective in generating proper moral behavior as a policeman armed only with a whistle will be at reducing the speed of speeders.

 

[DHK]

Repent of your slander Bob. Or according to your theology (not mine) you will perish in hell. Here is what you said:

I can see it now, a bunch of drunks molesting women and shouting and swearing, and you can hear some shouting "amen" brother, and bypassers say "those are born again Christians".

Here is what you actually quoted me as saying (far more accurate)

I use the sin of adultery as an example because I know that it is a horrid sin in the eyes of most here.

The one sin of adultery, that a person could inevitably commit, and then suddenly die of a heart attack before it is confessed, according to you would send him to Hell. That is the example I used.
Did I ever say what you quoted, or even give a picture of such. No! Neither did anyone else on this board. It is pure slander. Repent Bob, or perish!

 

[DHK]

HP: I feel that there are many professing a sinning religion that live on a higher plane than their statements allow for. Just the same, when we tell the new believer that all sins, including the future ones, are under the blood, and that they can commit adultery or murder with impunity if they only have faith, we are not only in opposition to the plain Word of God, but fueling the fires of antinomian deception.

They will be about as effective in generating proper moral behavior as a policeman armed only with a whistle will be at reducing the speed of speeders.

Can you give me a quote where anyone said that that is the way a person is discipled.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Can you give me a quote where anyone said that that is the way a person is discipled.

HP: What is the purpose of discipline? What if the one being disciplined does not accept the discipline and continues to the end in their selfish course refusing to repent?

If I am not correct, you yourself have included repentance and faith together. How is it then faith is represented as in some case being apart from repentance? If they are part of each other, how can one have faith, that which you say is needed for salvation, apart from repentance, which at times at least you say is an essential part of faith?( or so I thought) Are you going to tell me that the penalty for failure to repent is nothing other, in the end, than to have their eternal rewards in heaven meted out to them early?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Can you give me a quote where anyone said that that is the way a person is discipled.

HP: What is the purpose of discipline? What if the one being disciplined does not accept the discipline and continues to the end on their selfish course refusing to repent? If I am not correct, you yourself have included repentance and faith together, how is it then faith is represented as in some case being apart from repentance? If they are part of each other, how can one have faith, that which you say is needed for salvation, apart from repentance which at times at least you say is an essential part of faith? Are you going to tell me that the penalty for failure to repent is nothing other in the end than to have their eternal rewards in heaven meted out to them early?


If the obedient is perfect in Christ, and the disobedient are perfect in Christ, why the need at all for discipline? Can anyone ever be more perfect than the perfection we already have in Christ? Besides, if one did repent and turn from their sin, would not you and others be there to remind them that regardless of their repentance they are still the same sinners they always were, and if they think that they now are without sin they are arrogantly deceived and nothing but a liar?

So according to how I understand you, discipline serves no practical purpose anyway. Why bring it into the discussion?

 

[grahame]

HP: I feel that there are many professing a sinning religion that live on a higher plane than their statements allow for. Just the same, when we tell the new believer that all sins, including the future ones, are under the blood, and that they can commit adultery or murder with impunity if they only have faith, we are not only in opposition to the plain Word of God, but fueling the fires of antinomian deception.

They will be about as effective in generating proper moral behavior as a policeman armed only with a whistle will be at reducing the speed of speeders.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. If someone has it in their mind to sin with impunity, then it is clear that they have not truly understood the doctrine of justification by faith alone. In fact this is the objection that the apostle Paul answers in Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin live any longer therein?

If they think they can sin with impunity, then not only have they misunderstood the doctrine. But also it is quite probable that they have not been saved at all. For to do such a thing would be to deny, not only the grace of God in the Lord Jesus Christ, but it would also be to deny the power of the blood of Christ.
It took me years before I could see this doctrine of justification by faith in the scriptures. First I was saved, then I wasn't. All the time I was trying to make myself good enough to be saved. Trying to correct this sin and abstaining from this and that, in order to try and make myself holy.
Until one day I was reading the scriptures aloud in the workshop, with my friend listening. I was reading from the epistle of the Romans. Then as I was reading chapter 5 I came to verse one and read,

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Suddenly it was as though someone had lifted a veil from my eyes. I can't describe it anything less than that. For years it was as if I had only been partly healed, like the blind man whom Jesus healed. He saw men as trees walking. Well that was how I was. But from that time I saw all things clearly. I saw exactly what Christ did for me when he shed his blood for me on that day. He took ALL my sins away, past present and future and I felt strengthened and liberated for the first time in my Christian life. Moreover I found I had power over those sins that before had continually beset me. It is there that the power over sin lies. Not in the keeping of any law. No one was ever perfected by the law and no one ever will be. If they are trusting in the law to perfect them, then they are sadly mistaken and will be bitterly disappointed.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

(Rom 10:4) He must have all the glory. I must have nothing of that glory. It is only by the power of the blood of Christ that anyone will be saved and nothing less. We must let go of the reins and give Him all the glory and credit. Nothing, NOTHING in my hands I bring. Simply to thy cross I cling.

 

[donnA]

Romans 5: 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Romans 8:
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

 

[DHK]

So according to how I understand you, discipline serves no practical purpose anyway. Why bring it into the discussion?

You brought it in the discussion. I used the word "discipled" and you went on a tirade about "discipline." Are you sure you got my original point in response to what you said?

Here it is again. Try and follow the conversation:
HP: HP: I feel that there are many professing a sinning religion that live on a higher plane than their statements allow for. Just the same, when we tell the new believer that all sins, including the future ones, are under the blood, and that they can commit adultery or murder with impunity if they only have faith, we are not only in opposition to the plain Word of God, but fueling the fires of antinomian deception.

DHK: Can you give me a quote where anyone said that that is the way a person is discipled.

We do not disciple believers by telling them that they can go out and do whatever they want as you inferred. We don't tell them: Now that you are saved: go and "commit adultery, or murder with impunity if you only have faith."
That is slander. And thus my statement for you to back up your words. Give me a quote where anyone said that that is the way a person is discipled.
Just because your theology is different does not mean you should come to unwarranted conclusions and slander your opponent with whom you are debating.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Grahame: Moreover I found I had power over those sins that before had continually beset me. It is there that the power over sin lies. Not in the keeping of any law. No one was ever perfected by the law and no one ever will be. If they are trusting in the law to perfect them, then they are sadly mistaken and will be bitterly disappointed.

HP: This is a truly refreshing portion of your post. Victory over sin IN THIS PRESENT WORLD is the promise of the gospel. May God receive the praise for your consistent walk with the Lord!

I will agree with you completely, that if anyone in our dispensation is depending on works to save or perfect them, they are sadly mistaken. Just the same, no one will be saved or perfected 'apart from' obedience either. Obedience is NOT thought of in relationship to salvation in the sense of “that for the sake of” but is always thought of in the sense of “not without which.”

I would hope that if you have read the prison illustration I have posted a few times, that this distinction would be clearly illustrated and understood.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You brought it in the discussion. I used the word "discipled" and you went on a tirade about "discipline." Are you sure you got my original point in response to what you said?

HP: Egg on my face. Please forgive me. I simply read it wrong.

DHK: Can you give me a quote where anyone said that that is the way a person is discipled.

HP: No, as a matter of fact I cannot. But I can tell you that if one will but stick around the church for more that a minute, they will be sure to be instructed as to the total impossibility of them ever being made free from sin in this present world. Let one dare to testify as to being made free from sin, or that by the power of the Holy Spirit they have a conscience void of offense before God and man and see how long it is before they are called a liar and told that the trut is not in them.

How am I doing? Am I back on subject?

 

[DHK]

How am I doing? Am I back on subject?

Doin' fine. Good to be back on topic. We all disciple a new believer as one who is to be dead to sin, and alive to Christ--living a new life in Christ. Christ comes into the believer's life and gradually changes him. There is not a sudden change in one's life that he turns from dreadful, immoral, unrighteous, sinner into perfected saint in just one night.
There is a process called sanctification, the process of growing in grace and truth. We, on this earth, will never reach sinless perfection. That will only happen in heaven. 1John 1:8-10 teaches that. Thus there is a necessity for daily confession of sin and forgiveness. But never is a person's salvation called in question, not if he is truly saved. If he is born again how can he be unborn? As a child of God grows he learns every day right from wrong. He learns to grow in holiness. He matures. It is a growing process. Thus it is with discipleship.

This is the teaching of the Great Commission.
Go ye therefore and teach (disciple) all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, and lo I am with you even unto the end of the world. Amen.
1. Teach or disciple them. This involves an initial amount of work, at least to the extent of a good understanding of the gospel, that they be saved, and then an understanding of what it means to be baptized and why one should be baptized.
2. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded to you--This in itself is a life long process. Discipleship is a lifelong process. It is not easy. Mistakes are made just as children in one's household make mistakes and need to be disciplined. God disciplines us when we sin. He chastises us. We do sin. We cannot deny that we do. If we do deny it, we make Christ a liar and the truth is not in us. No man is perfect. We are to keep Christ's commandments which are far more than the Ten Coimmandments and far more difficult.
"Whoseover puts his hand to the plow and turns back is not fit for the kingdom of God."

 

[Brother Bob]

A person who commits adultery may go to heaven. He may even go to heaven while he is in the act of committing adultery. His sins are covered by the blood.
What is the difference between a lie (Annias and Sapphira), and adultery? There is no difference--none whatsoever. The consequences may be different. But in both sins you have broken God's law. Sin is a transgression of the law. What some here seem to be doing is taking on Catholic theology and dividing sin up--mortal sin, venial sin, etc. Are there some sins more seriuos than other sins? NO! All sin, and/or any sin will condemn a person to hell. The actual sin that condemns a person to hell, of course, is rejection of Jesus Christ. But Christ paid the penalty for all sin. When one rejects that penalty, that sacrifice, he rejects the only way that satisfaction can be made for the penalty of his sins. It matters not at the time of death, whether the sin is confessed or not. God does not demand that as far as salvation is concerned. It matters only as far as fellowship with Him is concerned. As far as salvation is concerned our sin is under the blood, to be remembered no more.
DHK;
He died to save us from our sins--to grant us forgiveness from our sins. Without the death of Christ there would be no possibility of forgiveness of sins. My sins are all forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They are all under the blood--past, present, and future.

If you say that one cannot enter heaven because of any unconfessed sin, even if it may be adultery then at the same time you are admitting to a religion of works. Your faith is one based on confession, a work that you must strive for. It is no longer by grace but of works. It is more like Catholicism. You must choose: grace or works--Which one.

DHK;

Maybe this is perfection, but it seems to say one can die in adultery, or any sin and still go to Heaven.

I don't see the false statement that I was accused of.

[The picture you paint is not one that any one of us has said, inferred, intimated, or even hinted at. Therefore you have lied by even posting what you said.
Repent Bob, or perish!
__________________
DHK

 

[DHK]

Maybe this is perfection, but it seems to say one can die in adultery, or any sin and still go to Heaven.

Yes, that is true. As far as salvation is concerned there is not a single sin that will keep me out of heaven. But that is not what was posted. It is far from it. I said sin. What was posted gave an entirely different picture didn't it? If sinless perfection is required to enter into heaven, then, my friend, aside from God and his angels heaven will be empty.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, but sure looks alike don't it.

Are you saying Salvation and going to Heaven are two different things?

 

[DHK]

Yea, but sure looks alike don't it.

Are you saying Salvation and going to Heaven are two different things?

When I am saved, I am born into God's family. I become one of his children and he gives me eternal life.
1. How can eternal liife ever become temporal? If I could lose that which is eternal God would be found to be a liar for eternal would become temporal.
2. Once I am a child God would never disinherit me. I am his child and that fact will never change, just as it can never change on earrth. I cannot change my genetic make up. I will always be the child of my father and mother no matter what they do, or no matter what I do.

Thus any unconfessed sin cannot keep me out of heaven because I have eternal life. I am eternally secure in him. It can cause me to break my fellowship with God, but not lose my salvation. A true believer will always strive to be more holy. But that doesn't mean he won't sin.