Absolute Christian Perfection

[Brother Bob]

When I am saved, I am born into God's family. I become one of his children and he gives me eternal life.
1. How can eternal liife ever become temporal? If I could lose that which is eternal God would be found to be a liar for eternal would become temporal.

Unless they were one of these.

Jud 1:4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or these;


Mat 15:14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Or these:



1 Timothy, chapter 4

1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Matt. 7:
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[DHK]

Unless they were one of these.

Jud 1:4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Or these;


Mat 15:14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Or these:



1 Timothy, chapter 4

1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Matt. 7:
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But why bring in red herrings. All of that is off topic. If you want to start a topic on false prophets/teachers or even false professions, go ahead. I am not speaking of those things. The topic here is salvation and heaven which you asked about? If a person is saved then what? If a person is saved he goes to heaven even if there is unconfessed sin at the end of his life--no exceptions. We are not speaking of false prophets, etc. We are speaking of those that are born again.

 

[Brother Bob]

But why bring in red herrings. All of that is off topic. If you want to start a topic on false prophets/teachers or even false professions, go ahead. I am not speaking of those things. The topic here is salvation and heaven which you asked about? If a person is saved then what? If a person is saved he goes to heaven even if there is unconfessed sin at the end of his life--no exceptions. We are not speaking of false prophets, etc. We are speaking of those that are born again.__________________
DHK

I don't consider them red herrings but ok. What you are saying if they are saved. What I am saying is that they are not saved and their works prove it.

 

[DHK]

I don't consider them red herrings but ok. What you are saying if they are saved. What I am saying is that they are not saved and their works prove it.

The Scriptures you quoted refer to unsaved people. So they don't apply to this discussion. Take Scripture in its context. The Scripture in Mat 7 is specifically speaking of false prophets. Jesus said earlier on: "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing." The discussion centers around that statement.
The passage in Timothy describes the end times. It is not describing believers but our society in general where "men shall be lovers of themselves," etc. Those are characteristics of the society in which we live, not believers.
Jude describes "ungodly men crept in unawares" hardly a description of Christians. Again it is a description of false teachers and false prophets.
Mat.15 concerning the blind leaders of the blind is a direct reference to the Pharisees.
None of this applies to the Christian.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Brother Bob]

The Scriptures you quoted refer to unsaved people. So they don't apply to this discussion. Take Scripture in its context. The Scripture in Mat 7 is specifically speaking of false prophets. Jesus said earlier on: "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing." The discussion centers around that statement.
The passage in Timothy describes the end times. It is not describing believers but our society in general where "men shall be lovers of themselves," etc. Those are characteristics of the society in which we live, not believers.
Jude describes "ungodly men crept in unawares" hardly a description of Christians. Again it is a description of false teachers and false prophets.
Mat.15 concerning the blind leaders of the blind is a direct reference to the Pharisees.
None of this applies to the Christian.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.__________________
DHK

Anybody would know they were unsaved because of the things they were doing. Same is true with the ones you are defending.
They are were in the church but they were "unsaved". That is what you can't seem to grasp.

Open your eyes DHK;

2 Corth. 11:
13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15: Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't consider them red herrings but ok. What you are saying if they are saved. What I am saying is that they are not saved and their works prove it.

Agreed.

But I am guessing that both sides can easily agree with this point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But to find a case where the FORGIVEN servant of GOD is in error -- we go to Matt 18 and see "forgiveness revoked".

To Go to a case of the people of God "who will judg angels" being in error we go to 1Cor 6.

To go to a case where "WE" the people of God deny God we go to 2Tim 2

2 Tim 2[/b]
10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us[/b];
13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

 

[DHK]

Anybody would know they were unsaved because of the things they were doing. Same is true with the ones you are defending.
They are were in the church but they were "unsaved". That is what you can't seem to grasp.

Open your eyes DHK;

2 Corth. 11:
13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15: Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

What makes you think I am defending those verses in the light of believers?
My premise is that believers can fall into sin, but I don't take Scripture out of context to prove my point.

It is easy to read through the first epistle of Corinthians (a letter written to "saints," believers in Christ, and see page after page of Paul correcting those who had fallen into grievous sin. Even the one in 1Cor.5 that had fallen into gross immorality (sex with his father's wife), was considered a brother in the Lord. Read the book and look at all the sinful practices that they had fallen into and yet they were considered Christians.

 

[Brother Bob]

It is easy to read through the first epistle of Corinthians (a letter written to "saints," believers in Christ, and see page after page of Paul correcting those who had fallen into grievous sin. Even the one in 1Cor.5 that had fallen into gross immorality (sex with his father's wife), was considered a brother in the Lord. Read the book and look at all the sinful practices that they had fallen into and yet they were considered Christians.__________________
DHK

I believe he said to cast such a one from among you. So, you think he was a saint do you, sleeping with his father's wife? I guess we all looking at Christianity wrong. I must of been closer to God when I was a wordly person.

 

[DHK]

I believe he said to cast such a one from among you. So, you think he was a saint do you, sleeping with his father's wife? I guess we all looking at Christianity wrong. I must of been closer to God when I was a wordly person.

Yes he was a brother in the Lord. He was "put out from among them" because he was disciplined from the church for his immorality. Sin has its consequences. All discipline is done with the goal of repentance. We find in 2Cor. that the said brother repented and was admitted back into the church as a brother. He never lost his salvation and thus had no need of regaining it. Like David he fell into sin, confessed it, repented and was right with the Lord thereafter. It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes he was a brother in the Lord. He was "put out from among them" because he was disciplined from the church for his immorality. Sin has its consequences. All discipline is done with the goal of repentance. We find in 2Cor. that the said brother repented and was admitted back into the church as a brother. He never lost his salvation and thus had no need of regaining it. Like David he fell into sin, confessed it, repented and was right with the Lord thereafter. It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp.__________________
DHK

Why would he have to repent if that sin was already covered by the blood of Christ. I put your theory before the church today just to see how they would take it and they thought it was heresy. Both brothers and sisters, they all just gasped.

It don't say how he was taken back in, was it through the door with a new confession and baptism? Do you all have people in your church that is guilty of such things and are there many of them?

 

[DHK]

Why would he have to repent if that sin was already covered by the blood of Christ. I put your theory before the church today just to see how they would take it and they thought it was heresy. Both brothers and sisters, they all just gasped.

First all our sins are covered by the blood: past, present and future--big and small, as far as our salvation is concerned.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--NONE!

Second: We repent of individual sins as believers, never in order to be saved. There is no verse in the Bible that says one must repent of their sins to be saved. Nowhere!
But look what it says here:

Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
--God does not hear the prayers of those who have unconfessed sin in their hearts, not because they are not saved, but because their fellowship with the Lord is broken by sin. The Psamist was still a saved person. But sin had separated him from God, and had broken his fellowship with God.
Thus it is with the teaching in 1John 1:9. We must confess our sin, and he will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It does not say he will give us salvation. That is not what is being discussed. The believer is already saved. A daily cleansing from sin is needed to keep our relationship with Christ right. Have you never meditated on the Lord's Prayer? "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those..." Why would we daily need forgiveness if we as beleivers don't sin. This is absolutely contrary to your theology, Bob.

It don't say how he was taken back in, was it through the door with a new confession and baptism? Do you all have people in your church that is guilty of such things and are there many of them?

2 Corinthians 2:6-8 Sufficient to such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the many;
7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive him and comfort him, lest by any means such a one should be swallowed up with his excessive sorrow.
8 Therefore I beg you to confirm your love toward him. (WEB)
--Accordingly we have no reason to believe that he was not forgiven and readmitted into the church.
They don't have to be taken back into the church "according to "Brother Bob's official Baptist Polity handbook." They had the instruction of the Apostle Paul. That was good enough for them.

 

[Brother Bob]

First all our sins are covered by the blood: past, present and future--big and small, as far as our salvation is concerned.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--NONE!

Rom 8:1¶[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Quote it all DHK;

Mar 2:17When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

2Pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Your doctrine is dangereous and will cause men to settle down on something short of repentance and according to the Lord "except you repent, ye shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come".

Now, you can teach people to not repent if you like. My job is to go into all the world and preach "repent ye for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

You scare me DHK; In your world there is no difference between the world and the church.





2 Corinthians 12:21
I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.

Acts 5:31
" He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 3:19
"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 24:47
and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.


SAME as Pre-Cross

Luke 3:3
And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins;

1John 1:9 - IF WE CONFESS our sins He is faithful and just TO forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[DHK]

None of those verses tell an unbeliever to repent of their sins to be saved, do they?

 

[Brother Bob]

What do you think the meaning of them are DHK? Are they not a process for the forgiveness of sin?

Is your message to the world that they don't have to repent of their sins?

You never did answer whether you are a preacher or not?


Rev 2:21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. (Is fornication sin?)

 

[Brother Bob]

By


C. H. Spurgeon

"Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20).​

15
REPENTANCE MUST GO WITH FORGIVENESS



IT IS CLEAR from the text which we have lately quoted that repentance is bound up with the forgiveness of sins. In Acts 5:31 we read that Jesus is "exalted to give repentance and forgiveness of sins." These two blessings come from that sacred hand which once was nailed to the tree, but is now raised to glory. Repentance and forgiveness are riveted together by the eternal purpose of God. What God hath joined together let no man put asunder. Repentance must go with remission, and you will see that it is so if you think a little upon the matter. It cannot be that pardon of sin should be given to an impenitent sinner; this were to confirm him in his evil ways, and to teach him to think little of evil. If the Lord were to say, "You love sin, and live in it, and you are going on from bad to worse, but, all the same, I forgive you," this were to proclaim a horrible license for iniquity. The foundations of social order would be removed, and moral anarchy would follow. I cannot tell what innumerable mischiefs would certainly occur if you could divide repentance and forgiveness, and pass by the sin while the sinner remained as fond of it as ever. In the very nature of things, if we believe in the holiness of God, it must be so, that if we continue in our sin, and will not repent of it, we cannot be forgiven, but must reap the consequence of our obstinacy. According to the infinite goodness of God, we are promised that if we will forsake our sins, confessing them, and will, by faith, accept the grace which is provided in Christ Jesus, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But, so long as God lives, there can be no promise of mercy to those who continue in their evil ways, and refuse to acknowledge their wrongdoing. Surely no rebel can expect the King to pardon his treason while he remains in open revolt. No one can be so foolish as to imagine that the Judge of all the earth will put away our sins if we refuse to put them away ourselves.

 

[DHK]

What do you think the meaning of them are DHK? Are they not a process for the forgiveness of sin?

Can you repent of all your sins (in order to be saved)? An impossibility! You can't even remember all the sins you have ever committed much less be able to list them all and then repent of them one by one. What a ridiculous concept! Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. One needs to repent (change their attitude) from their old sinful life, and repent toward (change their attitude) God, and submit to Him. I have changed my mind toward God. Once I lived in rebellion to Him, now I live in submission to Him. That is repentance. Repenting of all my sins has nothing to do with it. Repentance is a change of mind. Look the word "repentance" up in a Greek lexicon to get the exact meaning.
None of the verses that you gave even inferred "repent of your sins." They don't say that.

Is your message to the world that they don't have to repent of their sins?

No, they don't--not to be saved.
On the other hand, a believer, such as the one in 1Cor.5:1-5 had to repent of his sin of immorality before he was admitted back into the church. Each day we must come to God and confess our sins to him, and ask forgiveness. That restores my fellowship. As far as salvation is concerned those sins are under the blood never to be remembered again.
I don't need to be born again and again and again, as some here think.

You never did answer whether you are a preacher or not?

Yes, I have been preaching for 30 years.

Rev 2:21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. (Is fornication sin?)[/quote]
It is one sin listed among just a few. It refers to a few specific sins of a false prophetess, Jezebel who was leading the people astray. She did not repent of the things that she was doing. They were specific things that the Lord mentioned. Don't take Scripture out of context.

Nowhere does it teach that you must repent of your sins to be saved. That is a false doctrine.

 

[Brother Bob]

WESLEY'S SERMONS -

SERMON 14

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]
THE REPENTANCE OF BELIEVERS
"Repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15.
1. It is generally supposed, that repentance and faith are only the gate of religion; that they are necessary only at the beginning of our Christian course, when we are setting out in the way to the kingdom. And this may seem to be confirmed by the great Apostle, where, exhorting the Hebrew Christians to "go on to perfection," he teaches them to leave these first "principles of the doctrine of Christ;"not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God;" which must at least mean, that they should comparatively leave these, that at first took up all their thoughts, in order to "press forward toward the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." 2. And this is undoubtedly true, that there is a repentance and a faith, which are, more especially, necessary at the beginning: a repentance, which is a conviction of our utter sinfulness, and guiltiness, and helplessness; and which precedes our receiving that kingdom of God, which, our Lord observes, is "within us;" and a faith, whereby we receive that kingdom, even "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost."
[/FONT]

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, Spurgeon and Wesley must of been wrong. Too bad they didn't have you to help them.

Can you repent of all your sins (in order to be saved)? An impossibility! You can't even remember all the sins you have ever committed much less be able to list them all and then repent of them one by one. What a ridiculous concept! Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. One needs to repent (change their attitude) from their old sinful life, and repent toward (change their attitude) God, and submit to Him. I have changed my mind toward God. Once I lived in rebellion to Him, now I live in submission to Him. That is repentance. Repenting of all my sins has nothing to do with it. Repentance is a change of mind. Look the word "repentance" up in a Greek lexicon to get the exact meaning.
None of the verses that you gave even inferred "repent of your sins." They don't say that.
You can't even remember all the sins you have ever committed much less be able to list them all and then repent of them one by one. What a ridiculous concept! Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God. One needs to repent (change their attitude) from their old sinful life, and repent toward (change their attitude) God, and submit to Him. I have changed my mind toward God. Once I lived in rebellion to Him, now I live in submission to Him. That is repentance. Repenting of all my sins has nothing to do with it. Repentance is a change of mind. Look the word "repentance" up in a Greek lexicon to get the exact meaning.
None of the verses that you gave even inferred "repent of your sins." They don't say that.

They all teach to repent of their sins. Jesus said "except you repent you shall all likewise perish".

Can you repent of all your sins (in order to be saved)?

True, but except ye repent you shall perish and where Jesus is, you cannot come.

Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.

Repentance is also turn and unbelief is sin and if you never turn (repent) and believe you shall die in your sins.
I can't imagine your reasoning why you talk against repenting (turning from) sin.

 

[DHK]

Notice that neither Wesley nor Spurgeon refer to the necessity of the unsaved having to repent of all their sins as you think that they must do.