Absolute Christian Perfection

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed: Personally, I'm kinda' glad the Holy Spirit did not have Moody, Wesley, Calvin, Spurgeon, Arminius, Origen, Augustine, Scofield, Rick Warren, Brother Bob, BobRyan, DHK or EdSutton, just to name a handful, write any of the Scriptures.

HP: One thing is for sure, if Moody would have written them, God would have been forced to have DHK write an extensive forward or preface.

 

[DHK]

By contrast when someone has a problem with the "soft" sins - the sacred-violations like "coveting" or "pride" or "gossiping" or ... we DO accept a "gradual improvement" year by year and hold them in good standing.

Question - is that valid?

In Christ,

Bob

This is a good question for Brother Bob. God doesn't differentiate between sin.
Will God admit someone into heaven (according to Brother Bob) with unconfessed gossiping still on his heart.

 

[grahame]

Ed: Personally, I'm kinda' glad the Holy Spirit did not have Moody, Wesley, Calvin, Spurgeon, Arminius, Origen, Augustine, write any of the Scriptures.

HP: One thing is for sure, if Moody would have written them, God would have been forced to have DHK write an extensive forward or preface.

Perhaps we all fail to see that the prophets were men of like passions as we are ourselves including all those named here. History seems to do things to people and we tend to think of the prophets who only did what God told them to do. One has only to read the accounts of them to see that they too had many failings.
These comments somehow remind me of our Lord's words.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets

My dear friends, we know nothing about any of those men mentioned here, only that which was written about them. Try writing down every thought that you yourselves have every second. It's impossible. So much of the lives of these great men are a mystery to us. We only know them for what they wrote. How can we even dare compare them to each other, let alone to those who penned the scriptures. They have made their mark on history. Who are we? Who knows about us?
So how much less do we know about the lives of the prophets. For those in their own day considered them to be heretics and so murdered them. And we dare to strut around deliberating of what God would or would not have done. I'll tell you what he did with these great men mentioned here. He used them to peach the gospel to or influence 1000's.

They all of them were certainly diverse in their thinking one from the other and some or most would not agree with much of what is said in this forum that's for sure. They also had their faults. I have deleted some of course, for it would not be fair to comment on those in our midst at the present time. But what have we done my friends? Will we ourselves be counted among these great men? To be sure the Holy Spirit would not write the scriptures again by any of these men. But He certainly used them to write history.

 

[grahame]

Bob quoted this verse as proof that we as Christians can sin unto death, which he defines as "adulty", for reasons best known to himself.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Now obviously Bob, you have not been listening to me as I have been trying to teach you how to read the scriptures. You must never divorce one verse from all the rest. But you must read it in context.
Now as I have said before Paul's way was to (1) Expound the doctrine to his readers and (2) Then to apply the teaching. Just here he is still working out the implications of that great doctrine of justification by faith and just here in these verses he is answering the objections to it. It is all part of that section in chapter 6 where is is answering the objection tothose Jews who would say that this doctrine would open the floodgates of sin. So he says,

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

Notice the words "dead to sin"? He says near enough the same thing in verse 11

" Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord"

But notice he doesn't say that you will no longer sin. But he says "reckon" yourselves to be dead unto sin.
In other words he is speaking of that which has already happened to the Christian. We as Christians do sin. Indeed sometimes more grievously than we think we do. But the reality God Himself does reckon us to be indeed dead to sin, in that what our Lord Jesus Christ did on that day when he was crucified in fact destroyed him who had the power of death. Read this whole chapter again and again Bob and if you pray that God will open your eyes to this most wonderful and powerful and liberating doctrine. HE WILL i promise you reveal it to you.
Read this verse again

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

Now read on to what he says next

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Can you see what he is saying? He isn't speaking to a particular people he knows are living perfect lives. He is speaking to those he doesn't even know, for he hasn't been to Rome yet. He is speaking to us Bob. We who have obeyed from the heart. We are not goverened or controlled by the law any more. But we are now controlled and governed by the grace of God through our Lord Jesus Christ. It is through him and the power of his blood that we have victory over sin in the Christian life.

Please do not confuse justification with sanctification here. We do sin as Christians. Do not be deceived, if we say we have no sin then we lie and the truth is not in us says John. And when he says that the Christian does not sin. He obviously does not mean that we are all perfect. For that would be a lie. But what he was talking about was, the Christian does not live a life of sin continually like the man of the world who is guided every day by his whims and fancies.

Listen to him again in verse 14

For sin shall not have dominion over you

WHY?

for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Can you see it Bob? This is a tremendous truth that you cannot seem to see. We are not under the law. There it is in black and white. not under the law. What are we under then?

under grace

. There is the power over sin Bob. There is our victory. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


But it is essential Bob that you read over this chapter repeatedly until you haveunderstood what the apostle Paul is saying here. For he isn't saying what you think he is saying. Please do not automatically reject what I am saying here ands answer in a kind of knee jerk reaction. But study carefully what I am saying. In this way you will eventually come to the truth of this powerful and liberating doctrine.

 

[Shiloh]

If a road sign says "drunk drivers go to jail", well I am free from that law because I don't drink. If the Law of God says "thou shalt not commit adultery", then I am free from that law because I don't commit adultery. I brought up the thing you keep referring to about "looking at a woman" and its lust in church yesterday to see how my congregation would take it. If I look and think a woman is "pretty" is not lust because I see just as many that I think is "ugly" and that is not "unlust". To lust in your heart is to look at a woman and lust to have her. Well, if you go that far then you do commit adultery but His Grace is sufficient to keep us. You don't put enough "faith" in His Grace to be able to keep us, rather you fall back to the blood already has covered the adultery and therefore it don't count against you. I think His "Grace" is stronger than your temptation and will keep you from such acts. That is the kind of God I serve Sir.by Bor Bob

Look at your own analogy Bob, If you are driving and see a sign that says "drunk drivers go to jail" but that doesn't bother you because you don't drink but seeing that sign doesn't mean you can't drink. It simply means if you do you will pay the consequences. You as a Christian don't murder people or rob banks or commit adultery but as a Christian you still could.
However to hear you correctly, you say as a Christian....you can't do these things. Then you go before your church and ask then what they think. Brother I wouldn't trade places with you for all the tea in China. I understand the verse in Eph. 2:9 better now. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The Word of God tells us what our "righteousness" is like. David said in Psalms four times, 40:17, 70:5, 86:1 and 109:22 I am poor and needy;
Notice what David said in Psa 25:15, Mine eyes are ever toward the LORD; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.
I fear you are boasting about "your" Salvation. Your good works you are doing while still in the flesh with your "old Nature." Paul takes the entire book of Corinthians to try and convince the Christians to live Godly. Twice he tells them, All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Grahame: But the reality God Himself does reckon us to be indeed dead to sin, in that what our Lord Jesus Christ did on that day when he was crucified in fact destroyed him who had the power of death.

HP: Where is the Scripture that states or implies that God Himself reckons us indeed dead to sin, while one persists in it? We want to see the verse used in its proper context and we sure do not want to see one text divorced from the rest.

 

[Brother Bob]

Look at your own analogy Bob, If you are driving and see a sign that says "drunk drivers go to jail" but that doesn't bother you because you don't drink but seeing that sign doesn't mean you can't drink. It simply means if you do you will pay the consequences. You as a Christian don't murder people or rob banks or commit adultery but as a Christian you still could.
However to hear you correctly, you say as a Christian....you can't do these things. Then you go before your church and ask then what they think. Brother I wouldn't trade places with you for all the tea in China. I understand the verse in Eph. 2:9 better now

From the things you post I really don't think you could trade places with me. You dwell on "Christians could do those things", as if you are looking for a right to do so. Why not dwell on the point that "I don't do those things anymore" and the Grace of God makes it possible. If you don't have enough Grace of God to keep from committing adultery and such then I feel sorry for you.
BTW, don't worry about me. I had a talk with the Lord many years ago and He gave me His Grace which has taken care of me for over 34 years. Guess what? I haven't done any of those things since. amen,

Mine eyes are ever toward the LORD; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.

How you misuse scriptures as if God's children are supposed to be in the net all the time. If He raised you out of the mire of the Clay, He sure is able to keep you by His Grace. You don't have enough faith in the Grace of God. You consider the "weakness of your flesh" as being stronger than the "Grace of God". You are the one in need, not me. IMO

 

[Brother Bob]

But notice he doesn't say that you will no longer sin. But he says "reckon" yourselves to be dead unto sin.
In other words he is speaking of that which has already happened to the Christian. We as Christians do sin. Indeed sometimes more grievously than we think we do. But the reality God Himself does reckon us to be indeed dead to sin, in that what our Lord Jesus Christ did on that day when he was crucified in fact destroyed him who had the power of death. Read this whole chapter again and again Bob and if you pray that God will open your eyes to this most wonderful and powerful and liberating doctrine. HE WILL i promise you reveal it to you.
Read this verse again

So, being dead to sin means you can sin. God help us!!

Just being honest, I don't think you could teach me anything. You use the bible to try and justify sin. I have known many that the only reason they read the Bible is to try and justify sin. Had an uncle who said he read were he could keep drinking, man was he happy. I am sure the adulterers are happy to read your posts also. I would suppose they hate to read mine though for I teach them it is sin and will send them to Hell.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets

You fail to see the reason for the "coming of Christ" by such statements about the Pharisees and scribes and hypocrites! We have our hypocrites alright and its those who continue in sin claiming to be Christians.

Think about it, what is a Hypocrit? According to your theology there would be no Hypocrits.

What bothers you fellows so bad that I try to live a "good" Christian life?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Shiloh: The Word of God tells us what our "righteousness" is like. David said in Psalms four times, 40:17, 70:5, 86:1 and 109:22 I am poor and needy;

HP: How would you balance the passages you mention with these?

Ps 18:20 ¶ The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
Ps 18:24 Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.

Was David boasting?

 

[Brother Bob]

under grace
. There is the power over sin Bob. There is our victory. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I agree Grace is the power over sin but not the way you mean it that we can continue to sin because we have Grace. God forbid and how dangereous it is to have people teach others such. Grace is the power over sin and you carefully listen to this "for your temptation I will make a way for your escape". Notice He didn't say "I will cover your sin up, go to it!". yikes!!!!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: I had a talk with the Lord many years ago and He gave me His Grace which has taken care of me for over 34 years. Guess what? I haven't done any of those things since. amen,

HP: Praise the Lord! Keep boasting in the Lord!:thumbs:

 

[Shiloh]

Brother Bob and HP, there have arguments on this board that have been hard to argue. Such as, is there eternal fire in hell? A person in a cult would deny that, and the only thing we have to use to argue the fact that a person dying without Christ will burn forever is the Word of God which they deny. However this argument of yours is so easy! I bet if I could talk to your wives we would have an altogether different view of your sinless perfection! :saint: If we could follow you guys around for 1 hour there would be no more argument. What do you do when you slam your hand in the car door.....Oh Praise the Lord!! Or you are a little late for church and someone pulls right out in front of you, Oh Bless you my dear driver? Right How do I know that's not the case.....even though you will deny it, because you my brother are still in the flesh, you still have the old nature. Also it is because I believe the Bible,1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Brother Bob]

You have to resort to saying we are saying we are sinless and no one has ever said that. You just don't have enough Grace to keep you if you are guilty.IMO

I wonder, are you guilty of adultery, stealing, killing, liar since being saved or are you guilty and therefore need to make the Grace of God weak and not strong enough to keep you? IMO

It would not bother me a bit for you to follow me or ask my wife. Will she tell you I am perfect. No, and I have never said such. I do say that I do not commit adultery, lie, kill, steal, beat my father and mother, worship a cow etc.

If you are guilty of these things then I would ask you as one concerned about your soul that you begin to pray for the real thing. There are many many people who have been taught fables and think they are saved all the time committing adultery. If anyone is guilty of this for your own sakes make it right with the Lord and stop doing those things. IMO

 

[Shiloh]

It would not bother me a bit for you to follow me or ask my wife. Will she tell you I am perfect. No, and I have never said such. I do say that I do not commit adultery, lie, kill, steal, beat my father and mother, worship a cow etc.by Bro Bob

I wonder why you continue to harbor on the sin of Adultery?
How do you classify some sins as sins a Christian can commit and sin they can't?
You tell me you are not perfect? Then you sin? I thought you told me a Christain can not sin?

 

[rbell]

It would not bother me a bit for you to follow me or ask my wife. Will she tell you I am perfect. No, and I have never said such. I do say that I do not commit adultery, lie, kill, steal, beat my father and mother, worship a cow etc.by Bro Bob

I wonder why you continue to harbor on the sin of Adultery?
How do you classify some sins as sins a Christian can commit and sin they can't?
You tell me you are not perfect? Then you sin? I thought you told me a Christain can not sin?

As I've said before...we end up here with a two-tiered structure of sin, which goes against the Sermon on the Mount.

Now...back to the argument...

 

[DHK]

As I've said before...we end up here with a two-tiered structure of sin, which goes against the Sermon on the Mount.

Now...back to the argument...

Without such a dichotomy of sin, there can be no such doctrine of entire sanctification or absolute Christian perfection. It is impossible. Such a doctrine demeans the holiness of God, His hatred of sin, and attacks the sufficiency of the blood of Christ to cover all sin.

 

[Brother Bob]

You keep saying it is me who claims perfection and I say that I do sin, but not the sins you speak of, and I in no way claim that it is I, who is able to overcome such sin, but it is the "Grace of God" that is within me that Jesus said "My Grace is sufficient to keep thee". You deny that His Grace can do any such thing, but you say His Grace is too weak to keep His children.

By the Grace of God, I am what I am. If you are in adultery you sure can't say that. I use adultery for it easy for you to understand. Has nothing to do with me.

 

[Shiloh]

By the Grace of God, I am what I am. If you are in adultery you sure can't say that. I use adultery for it easy for you to understand. Has nothing to do with me.by Bro Bob

What would happen to your philosophy if you would strike out "adultery" and put in "pride?" Maybe pride is not a sin in your book.

 

[Brother Bob]

We do have an advocate with God for sins such as pride but not adultery for the saved.

again, His Grace is sufficient to keep me.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


1Corth. 6:
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[DHK]

We do have an advocate with God for sins such as pride but not adultery for the saved.

So your God is not big enough to forgive adultery. He is not omnipotent nor forgiving. His blood is not sufficient enough to cover all sins. In effect he becomes a cruel and capricous God, only willing to cover some sins and not others. Is this what you are saying?