Absolute Christian Perfection

[Shiloh]

Sounds like the Catholic to me,? is that where you picked it up? NO, We believe Salvation is between the individual and the Lord.WOW that is profound, that's the only thing you said right in days. If they need to talk to the Pastor, they all know they can at any time, not just altar call. Has any one disagreed with that?Do you have a lot who need the altar to confess their sins. Not as many as should probably.

 

[Brother Bob]

You never answered is this where you have them pray the "sinners prayer"? And you save them?

 

[Brother Bob]

If there were in your church saved members and you found out that they went back and continued in their sin of pride and self-righteousness would you let them remain as members of your church? That is a smiple question, can't you answer it?__________________
DHK

I would need you there to tell me when they were proud and self righteous. If not sinning is self righteous as you seem to suggest, no, we would keep them. Thank you, If they boasted in the Lord, No, we would keep them. thank you,

Well, what you know, I answered and you "white eyed".

 

[EdSutton]

Double!!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

I was going to say "what about you?", then I thought you got the "ticket".

Does anyone believe the "saved" don't commit adultery, steal, kill etc?

Do you all have Gays in your church also? If they been saved and go back to the life of homosexuality then according to your believe they have the "ticket", so it don't count.

Ed;, shiloh, DHK and grahame, do you all have practicing gays in your church?

According to Scripture, anyone who looks at another with lust in the heart has already committed adultery; anyone who has hated his brother has killed, as the penalty is the same judgment; and I would assume that 'steal', meaning to take something that is not yours, is self-explanatory. That leaves seven of the "Big Ten" in the "etc." category, plus I don't know what else. So you tell me. Since one cannot 'see' into another's heart can the saved do any of these things? Where is there any Scripture that says that a saved individual cannot commit the same sins as the unsaved?

Peter, the one who made the famous 'confession' of faith which confession is that of the basic foundation of the church, to whom was given "the keys to the kingdom" lied, by 'playing the hypocrite' in Galatians, to get favor with one group of people. Paul called him out over it.

Then Paul turned around and disobeyed the Holy Spirit's specific instructions, by going to Jerusalem, when Scripture says he was warned NOT to go. Last time I checked, the Holy Spirit was God, so I'm pretty sure that that was not 'loving the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength'. At least not as I see it.

How about 'stealing'? Did any one of you ever walk off with someone's pencil or pen, even though unintentionally, and not ever return it? That is stealing, folks. It is not determined by the value of the object. This next bit does not apply to me, merely because I am not a pastor, but have any of you received anything from a church you pastor, like a Bible or a 'love-gift' of money or anything like that? Did you report it on your income taxes? Guess what! An individual can give you a gift, and it does not have to be reported, but a church, if it is your employer cannot do the same. If this is not reported as income, it is tax fraud, I believe.

Can any say that every single word from their mouth is absolutely true. I try but I cannot say that, for I may not say exactly what I mean, without knowing it, or get something twisted in my poor memory, and so forth. That would be a lie, in that case. Motive is not the issue, fact is the issue, in that.

But none of this is what you are really driving at. For that happens to be sexual sins.

In answer to your question, not that it is really anyone else's business except the local church, the individual and the Lord, I cannot speak for any of the others, and never try to do so. But to my knowledge, the answer is we do not have any practicing homosexuals in our assembly. I cannot say for certain, and certainly do not know what is in someone's heart, but am not aware of any, and am not trying to find out any who might be, personally.

My alter-ego is "Language Cop", not "Bedroom Police"! I'm sure I could ask "Brother Running-Trap" or "Sister Waggin'-Tongue" to find out some gossip, should I choose. I do not so choose.

12 A worthless person, a wicked man,
Walks with a perverse mouth;
13 He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
14 Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.
15 Therefore his calamity shall come suddenly;
Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy.
16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren. (Prov. 6:17 - NKJV)

Does God need to redo this list of things He hates?? One thing that is drawing a lot of interest in these posts seems conspicuously absent, to me.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

According to Scripture, anyone who looks at another with lust in the heart has already committed adultery; anyone who has hated his brother has killed, as the penalty is the same judgment; and I would assume that 'steal', meaning to take something that is not yours, is self-explanatory. That leaves seven of the "Big Ten" in the "etc." category, plus I don't know what else. So you tell me. Since one cannot 'see' into another's heart can the saved do any of these things? Where is there any Scripture that says that a saved individual cannot commit the same sins as the unsaved?

Why would you assume such a thing. Speak for yourself and don't apply your lifestyle to others.

Peter, the one who made the famous 'confession' of faith which confession is that of the basic foundation of the church, to whom was given "the keys to the kingdom" lied, by 'playing the hypocrite' in Galatians, to get favor with one group of people. Paul called him out over it.

Then Paul turned around and disobeyed the Holy Spirit's specific instructions, by going to Jerusalem, when Scripture says he was warned NOT to go. Last time I checked, the Holy Spirit was God, so i'm pretty sure that that was not 'loving the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength'. At least not as I see it.

Peter still was awaiting the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Paul was just warned he was in harm's way.

How about 'stealing'? Did any of you ever walk off with someone's pencil or pen, even though unintentionally and not ever return it? That is stealing, folks. It is not determined by the value of the object. This does not apply to me, merely because I am not a pastor, but have any of you received anything from a church you pastor, like a Bible or a 'love-gift' of money or anything like that? Did you report it on your income taxes? Guess what! An individual can give you a gift, and it does not have to be reported, but a church, if it is your employer cannot do the same. If this is not reported as income, it is tax fraud, I believe.

So, if I mistakely take a pen, then I am stealing. What a foolish statement.

I have an accountant take care of my taxes and I get 1099's for all my income. It would be very hard for me to cheat.

Can any say that every single word from their mouth is absolutely true. I try but I cannot say that, for I may not say exactly what I mean, without knowing it, or get something twisted in my poor memory, and so forth. That would be a lie, in that case. Motive is not the issue, fact is the issue, in that.

And according to you then, I have a bad loss of memory from all the heart surgeries and you think I am lying because I can't remember everything? yikes!!

In answer to your question, not that it is really anyone else's business except the local church, the individual and the Lord, I cannot speak for any of the others, and never try to do so. But to my knowledge, the answer is we do not have any practicing homosexuals in our assembly. I cannot say for certain, but am not aware of any, and am not trying to find out any who might be, personally.

Still didn't answer would you retain such a one in your membership, just in case you did know.

12 A worthless person, a wicked man,
Walks with a perverse mouth;
13 He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
14 Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.
15 Therefore his calamity shall come suddenly;
Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy.
16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren. (Prov. 6:17 - NKJV)

18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,

I say both of these would cover the one you say is missing.

That is not the only list.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

[DHK]

Still didn't answer would you retain such a one in your membership, just in case you did know.

12 A worthless person, .

Paul classified himself as the "chief of sinners." I guess he would not be worthy to be retained in the membership of your church.

 

[Brother Bob]

Paul classified himself as the "chief of sinners." I guess he would not be worthy to be retained in the membership of your church.__________________
DHK

Do you feel worthy of God's Grace. If not then you will know what Paul meant.

 

[Shiloh]

Old Regular Baptist:

The theology of the group is predestinarian, like the Primitive Baptist. While Primitives describe their belief as "particular election," Old Regulars prefer the terminology "election by grace." Preachers are God-called, not trained by man, and unpaid, and preach "improvisational" (often chanted) sermons. Baptism (in running water), the Lords Supper and feet washing are held to be ordinances. Shouting is a frequent occurrence at Old Regular meeting, particularly among the female membership. Conversion experiences may be a lengthy "process," beginning with an awakening to sin, through a period of conviction and travail of the soul, to repentance and belief.
http://www.baptistboard.com/
We believe that any doctrine that goes to encourage or indulge the people in their sins or cause them to settle down on anything short of saving grace in Christ for salvation is erroneous and such doctrine will be rejected by us.

 

[grahame]

I think all Bob is saying here, at least I think he is saying is what the writer to the Hebrews is saying, "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord."
The plain facts of the matter are that there are these warnings directed against us in Scripture to keep us from falling. Whether a person claiming to be a Christian whilst engaging in the sin of adultery will go to heaven or not, I cannot tell, for those kinds of decisions are for God Himself.

But I would seriously doubt as to whether that person was a Christian or not. For we are constantly called to show evidences of our faith. And if a person constantly tells us that he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, but his life shows no evidence of change whatsoever. Then I think we have reason to doubt his professions. As in this verse we are called to follow holiness. We are also told to make our calling and election sure. We are also told by the same writer to the Hebrews "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

These are plain warnings indeed for us and all who may be mistaken that all is well with his soul when in fact it is not. For do we not read, "Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

Whilst I truly believe scripture, that promises that God shall indeed keep that which we have committed unto that day. I believe in the perseverance of the saints. Nevertheless, these are clear warnings my dear friends. For no matter which way we look at it, our faith must in the last analysis be seen in the way we live our lives.

 

[Brother Bob]

Amen grahame........... God Bless,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Grahame: tell me what you believe Christ accomplished by his death on the cross? Did he only died for our sins that we committed before we were converted? I'm trying to get a better idea of what you actually believe Christ accomplished for us on the cross? There seems to be so much scripture quoted here that it is a muddle to me.

HP: May I ask you a question before I take a shot at this post? Whose sins were atoned for on the cross?

 

[EdSutton]

Why would you assume such a thing. Speak for yourself and don't apply your lifestyle to others.

I applied no lifestyle to anyone. I referenced three Scriptures, where you mentioned adultery, killing, stealing. etc.. My comment of "Big Ten" refers to the Ten Commandments, and those who think that they trump the rest of the Law given by God to Moses. The above three things are in three of the "Big Ten", and I have no way of knowing what you might be referring to by "etc.", and that is why I spoke as I did. Some of the Scriptures that speak to this are Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28; Eph. 4:28; I John 3:15.

Peter still was awaiting the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You are here mistaken, for Galatians was written, and the episode in Gal. 2 was many years after Pentecost, and they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

11 Now when Peter[b] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. (Gal. 2:11-13 - NKJV)

Paul was just warned he was in harm's way.

Once again, you are mistaken, sorry. In fact, Paul was told twice. It was more than just a warning that "he was in harm's way".

4 And finding disciples,[a] we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem. ... 11 When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” (Acts 21:4, 11 - NKJV)

So, if I mistakely take a pen, then I am stealing. What a foolish statement.

While mistakenly taking a pen is not stealing, per se, not returning it to its rightful owner would be, wouldn't you say, after one became aware of it? I'm sure you don't have this problem, but I have to admit, I can find two or three of those $1.29 pens that I have no idea from where they came, only that I did not purchase them.

And according to you then, I have a bad loss of memory from all the heart surgeries and you think I am lying because I can't remember everything? yikes!!

I did not mention you, but spoke of myself here. I too have had quadruple bypass surgery, carotid surgery after having had two TIA episodes and some other "pin strokes" I was not even aware of, plus Cancer surgery, as you know, and now am taking chemo and will be taking six weeks of radiation, and four more rounds of chemo, as a precaution. I spoke only of myself, here, as to the memory.

Still didn't answer would you retain such a one in your membership, just in case you did know.

Your memory isn't what it once was, maybe. You had not asked that question up to the post where I responded to. :laugh: :laugh:
But, being as you brought it up, the call would not be mine to make. Should it come before the church, I would have one vote and one vote only, in the church, as I hold no office in my church save that of 'saint' (Phil'p. 1:1), and am only a layman. Should that ever come up, and I did not like, and could not abide by the result, I would vote the only Biblical way I could after that, with my feet!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Your memory isn't what it once was, maybe. You had not asked that question up to the post where I responded to. :laugh: :laugh:
But, being as you brought it up, the call would not be mine to make. Should it come before the church, I would have one vote and one vote only, in the church, as I hold no office in my church save that of 'saint' (Phil'p. 1:1), and am only a layman. Should that ever come up, and I did not like, and could not abide by the result, I would vote the only Biblical way I could after that, with my feet!

Ed

What a cope out!

Your answers seem to confirm my answers more than condemn them Ed. thanks,

 

[EdSutton]

What a cope out!

Your answers seem to confirm my answers more than condemn them Ed. thanks,

How do you see this as a cop-out? I don't have any excessive influence as a layman. Should the church not at the least, discipline such an one, on admission or confrontational evidence, I would leave, in accordance with II Cor. 6:17. It is not my job to do that of the deacons, elders and pastors, for I am none of those things. But I am not going to make that call on unsubstantiated suspicion, hearsay and innuendo.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Do you feel worthy of God's Grace. If not then you will know what Paul meant.

I am curious how you decide that "what Paul meant" is somehow different than "what Paul said"? I'm a little slow, these days, so where is this declared?

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

I am curious how you decide that "what Paul meant" is somehow different than "what Paul said"? I'm a little slow, these days, so where is this declared?

Ed

You would have to feel like you had been worse than anyone to know how Paul felt Ed. I guess you don't understand.

 

[DHK]

Do you feel worthy of God's Grace. If not then you will know what Paul meant.

No, I don't feel worthy of the grace of God; but God gives it anyway.
The idea that I get from you is that you think you deserve God's grace because you know that when you come to the end of your life (even though you don't know when it may be) you will be sinless, and therefore deserve to enter into heaven. On the very merit that you will have your sins confessed you will enter into heaven. If your sins are not confessed you will not enter into heaven. Thus your religion is one of works, for you are not fully trusting in the grace of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

No, I don't feel worthy of the grace of God; but God gives it anyway.
The idea that I get from you is that you think you deserve God's grace because you know that when you come to the end of your life (even though you don't know when it may be) you will be sinless, and therefore deserve to enter into heaven. On the very merit that you will have your sins confessed you will enter into heaven. If your sins are not confessed you will not enter into heaven. Thus your religion is one of works, for you are not fully trusting in the grace of God.__________________
DHK

A complete misrepresentation of the facts and from a moderator too!

 

[DHK]

A complete misrepresentation of the facts and from a moderator too!

Is it a complete misrepresentation of the facts. If a believer dies with unconfessed sin will he go to heaven or hell?
If a believer dies having committed adultery and yet not confessed it to the Lord, will he go to heaven or hell?