Absolute Christian Perfection

[EdSutton]

You would have to feel like you had been worse than anyone to know how Paul felt Ed. I guess you don't understand.

I don't know how Paul felt, I agree. And we do agree on one thing, I guess. I don't understand - I don't understanad a lot of things. I don't understand how God could love me so much that He sent his Son to die in my place. I don't understand how He gave a new nature, saved me by faith, and paid the debt for sin once for all time. AND I don't understand how some can reword Scripture so blithely, either.

Ed

 

[grahame]

HP: May I ask you a question before I take a shot at this post? Whose sins were atoned for on the cross?

Is this a cryptic question? You tell me. :thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't know how Paul felt, I agree. And we do agree on one thing, I guess. I don't understand - I don't understanad a lot of things. I don't understand how God could love me so much that He sent his Son to die in my place. I don't understand how He gave a new nature, saved me by faith, and paid the debt for sin once for all time. AND I don't understand how some can reword Scripture so blithely, either.

Ed

If you try to live as the Lord told you to, I am sure you understand that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Grahame: You tell me.

HP: Christ made an atonement for the sins of all men and for all sin, except of course, the unpardonable sin. Agree or disagree?

 

[EdSutton]

If you try to live as the Lord told you to, I am sure you understand that.

Since the Lord never told me to substitute my own words for or to re-word His, I shall bow out of this thread, as well.

Ed

 

[DHK]

HP: Christ made an atonement for the sins of all men and for all sin, except of course, the unpardonable sin. Agree or disagree?

For all sin--I don't believe any such thing as an unpardonable sin exists today. Are we limiting God? Is there any sin so great that God cannot forgive. Then God is not omnipotent, and is rather cruel and capricious. I believe you have to take that passage in its historical context. It was meant for a specific audience at a specific time in history. It is not for every age.
God is able to forgive all sins no matter how wicked they are. Let's not limit Him.

 

[Brother Bob]

Since the Lord never told me to substitute my own words for or to re-word His, I shall bow out of this thread, as well.

Ed

If all you are going to do is throw around remarks like that then you are right, maybe its time.

 

[Brother Bob]

For all sin--I don't believe any such thing as an unpardonable sin exists today. Are we limiting God? Is there any sin so great that God cannot forgive. Then God is not omnipotent, and is rather cruel and capricious. I believe you have to take that passage in its historical context. It was meant for a specific audience at a specific time in history. It is not for every age.
God is able to forgive all sins no matter how wicked they are. Let's not limit Him.__________________
DHK

So now he knows more that God.

Mat 12:31¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mat 12:32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: God is able to forgive all sins no matter how wicked they are. Let's not limit Him.

HP: Why do you limit a Sovereign God, and edit His words into oblivion, with no Scriptural proof whatsoever, in this manner? If He says that, for whatever reasons He has, He will not pardon a sin against the Holy Spirit, I believe Him and we all would do well to do the same.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: For all sin

HP: You don’t really believe this either. If God atoned for all sin under the literal payment theory, you would of necessity be a Universalist.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let me ask the two moderators, DHK and I Am Blessed 16, the following question. If a man was born again you both say that there is no sin that would keep them out of heaven, can you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and still make heaven your home?

 

[grahame]

For all sin--I don't believe any such thing as an unpardonable sin exists today. Are we limiting God? Is there any sin so great that God cannot forgive. Then God is not omnipotent, and is rather cruel and capricious. I believe you have to take that passage in its historical context. It was meant for a specific audience at a specific time in history. It is not for every age.
God is able to forgive all sins no matter how wicked they are. Let's not limit Him.

I believe the Reformed position on this is that Christ died for the sins of his elect. Although there is that verse in Johns epistle which says, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

 

[grahame]

Let me ask the two moderators, DHK and I Am Blessed 16, the following question. If a man was born again you both say that there is no sin that would keep them out of heaven, can you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and still make heaven your home?

I believe that if anyone was guilty of this sin, then neither would they care for heaven either. For their hearts would be so hardened that no thought for God, nor Christ, nor salvation would even enter their heads. Although having said that. Those words of our Lord were directed against those Pharisees who said that Christ was possessed by an unclean Spirit.

 

[grahame]

HP: Christ made an atonement for the sins of all men and for all sin, except of course, the unpardonable sin. Agree or disagree?

On the whole, yes I agree. Although I hold the reformed position on this, that Christ died for his elect. Of course we do not know who the elect are, so we preach the gospel to every creature.

 

[DHK]

Let me ask the two moderators, DHK and I Am Blessed 16, the following question. If a man was born again you both say that there is no sin that would keep them out of heaven, can you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and still make heaven your home?

Ask ten different people to define "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" and you will get ten different answers.

I do not believe that any such sin exists, and therefore I do not believe that anyone today is capable of committing it. Therefore the question is moot.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

What is the context:
Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:27-28 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Jesus had done many miracles. He had just cast a demon out of one who was deaf and dumb in the very presence of the Pharisees, so that all who saw it were amazed. But the Phairsees, out of their own jealousy, accused Christ of casting demons out by the power of Satan rather than by the power of the Holy Spirit. The name they were using, Beelzebub, means "Lord of the flies." They were attributing the works of Jesus to Satan. That was their sin.
Jesus was performing miracles in the flesh, in their presence where they could see them. He said that if the mighty works that were done in Capernaum were done in Sodom, Sodom would have repented long ago. He also said that he could do more works there because of their unbelief. This was a sin committed by the Pharissees that one is not capable of committing today for the simple reason that Christ is not in the flesh today, performing miracles right in our very presence. It was historical. It was said to the Pharisees who at that time attiributed the very miracles that Jesus did to Satan himself. This cannot be repeated again in history. The sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is no longer applicable in our age today.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Grahame: On the whole, yes I agree. Although I hold the reformed position on this, that Christ died for his elect. Of course we do not know who the elect are, so we preach the gospel to every creature.

HP: I would see a slight problem with your two statements. What you have said is, I believe that God died for the sins of the whole world,…… but really I am just kidding. I really believe that God died only for the elect.

Grahame:I believe that if anyone was guilty of this sin, then neither would they care for heaven either. For their hearts would be so hardened that no thought for God, nor Christ, nor salvation would even enter their heads. Although having said that. Those words of our Lord were directed against those Pharisees who said that Christ was possessed by an unclean Spirit.

HP: Why just this sin? If one cares for heaven do you think that he would commit murder or commit adultery? If a believer could commit these sins, why not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Does God’s Word state in any way shape or form that only the Pharisees or the unsaved can commit this sin?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I do not believe that any such sin exists, and therefore I do not believe that anyone today is capable of committing it. Therefore the question is moot.

HP: Now here is place that the verse you like to quote so often is applicable. As many times as you have quoted this verse, and stated that all men are liars, I am sure you will understand that this is not intended as a personal attack in any way, but rather made as a general statement. “Let God’s Word be true and everyman a liar.”

You insinuate that there is no way to be certain what the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is due to the fact that there are so many opinions. Then you proceed to tell us your opinion as to not only what it is, but to whom it did apply and why, as well as tell us that it is IMPOSSIBLE for any today to commit this sin. I am reminded of those that said that it was impossible for the Titanic to sink. Your deductions concerning blasphemy of the Holy Spirit are none the less subjective and as such subject to error than those of those staking their lives and reputations on the Titanic. You have absolutely no way to prove that the only time it was applicable was when Jesus walked in the flesh. That is a self-created assumption on your part that is without merit. Establish the fact you claim, in that it is ‘impossible,’ with some other evidence other than it being simply your own unsupported opinion.

If we are to establish who is the best shoe cobbler in town, we are going to have to seek some other evidence that besides the mere words of one telling us that it is he that is the best.

 

[DHK]

Establish the fact you claim, in that it is ‘impossible,’ with some other evidence other than it being simply your own unsupported opinion.

It is possible for you to condense your entire post to this one statement and eliminate all of the demeaning remarks and somewhat false accusations.
Many have their opinions. But which one matches with what the Bible has to say, with the totality of Scripture. Have you given evidence for your view?

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was a historical event. I took plenty of space explaining that already in a previous post. I didn't see anyone else do that. Exposition of Scripture using context is the best way to explain Scripture. Have you done that? Rather than repeat my entire explanation, I advise you to go and read my previous post.
Now how does it harmonize with Scripture?
Suppose that it was possible to commit the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Then: God would not be omnipotent.
God would not be able to forgive all sin.
God's blood would not be able to atone for all sin.
God's blood is not sufficient to cover all our sins.
We serve a powerless God.
There are some sins that it becomes impossible for God to forgive, redefining God as a puppet of man. In other words man is defining who God is. It is humanism making man greater than God.

 

[Amy.G]

How could a believer blaspheme the Holy Spirit? The Spirit indwells the believer. How can the Spirit of God blaspheme God?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Suppose that it was possible to commit the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Then: God would not be omnipotent.
God would not be able to forgive all sin.
God's blood would not be able to atone for all sin.
God's blood is not sufficient to cover all our sins.
We serve a powerless God.

HP: Even you admit that there was such a sin at one time at least in at least one group of individuals lives. Can we logically assume your deductions as true? Because it did exist, was God not Omnipotent? Was He not able to forgive all sins? Was God powerless?