Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: I will tell you how, just as soon as you tell me how one can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and commit adultery or murder.
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Absolute Christian Perfection
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HP: I will tell you how, just as soon as you tell me how one can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and commit adultery or murder.
I know I'm not Amy, but it's really simple, there are multiple ways it can be done. One could set up a fake name and get a hotel room and meet a person there. Some just wait until their significant other is on a business trip or sometimes that "business" trip is the setup. I mean there are all kinds of ways. I saw on FoxNews that there are now companies that you can pay to provide you with alibis.
And for murder there are endless possibiliies as well, knife, gun, rope, etc. etc.
God judges sin. Your logic is not quite consistent.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
It is like saying that because Judas is the "son of perdition" then there must be a "son of perdidtion" to receive the same condemnation in every generation. But that is not true is it? History does not repeat itself in such a way.
This was an historical event. Read the context carefully. Where else in history do you have individuals accusing Christ (come in the flesh) of doing his miracles by the power of Satan. He was doing these miracles right before their eyes. Thus it was not so much Him they were blaspheming, but the Holy Spirit, for it was a Satanic spirit that they were attributing to Christ.
Christ was warning them if they persisted in this that judgment would come upon them. It is not a warning given to every one. It was given to these Pharisees. They persisted in their sins, and were eventually responsible for putting Christ on the cross. "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!," they shouted, not many days thereafter.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Condemnation is NOT the samething as CONVICTION. All christians are no longer in any condemnation, it is written: There is now NO condemnation for those that are in christ....This may not be an excact quote, but you get the point of the verse that I am referring to.
What warns us not to sin? Not condemnation, but the CONVICTION of the Holy Ghost.
:godisgood:
The answer to that one is that a true believer cannot blaspheme the Holy Ghost.Amy.G said:
I think that all these hypothetical questions about adultery and lying and now this latest one, the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, come from the fact of not rightly dividing the word of God. Or to put it another way. A failure to understand the Scriptures within the context in which a particular verse or verses are written.
Concerning this sin of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit for instance. So let us look at the context in which our Lord spoke those profound and terrible words. You'll find it in Matthew chapter 12
Now you will see that it was as our Lord was working all these miracles and amongst his great and wonderful deeds was the casting out of demons.
Now the Pharisees heard all this and because they were convinced our Lord was an imposter they retorted
Our Lord heard this and so he reasoned with them that it was illogical that what they said was true.
Then he gave them this warning.
Notice he doesn't say they committed that sin. It was a warning that by saying our Lord was casting out devils by the prince of devils was tantamount to saying that the Spirit of God is an unclean spirit and that amounts to nigh on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So when we talk of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit we must keep this in mind. This in itself must breath caution within us whenever we are tempted to speak of this sin and not to mention it lightly.
The Holy Spirit is unique to the New Testament. In fact He is unique to the Christian Church and is unique especially as far as the Christian believer is concerned. And He is so in this way. No one can be a Christian without the Holy Spirit. Every Christian is indwelt by Him.
He is if you like Christ's other self. For we are told
He is another comforter. Christ was going to the Father and he was sending the Holy Spirit in his place and he was to
So He the Holy Spirit is vital in this equation of salvation. He is essential to our enlightenment. Indeed our Lord says
It is the Holy Spirit who shall reprove the world of sin. Indeed it is He who convicts a person of his sins so that he seeks the saviour. Without Him a person has no knowledge of sin. In fact a person will not even see his need of salvation. He may be religious and speak about God and wax eloquent about many things. He may be a high up member of the church and be respected of men. The Pharisees were all of these things remember.
But their hearts were revealed the moment they accused our Lord of casting out Satan by Satan. Therefore in the light of these things a true Christian believer cannot by the very character of the sin, cannot blaspheme against the Holy Ghost. It is an impossibilty and a contradiction of logic. If a person loves the saviour and is convinced that he is washed in his precious blood so that all his sins and offenses were laid on Him at Calvary. Or as the prophet Isaiah said,
My dear friends, one who believes these things simply cannot commit this terrible sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. For when we put our Lord's words into context it is evident that he is not speaking about the believer in Christ. But was directing his words against those who did not believe in him.
Lastly, we should rather concentrate on those precious words of our Lord that he uttered at the same time to these same inbelieving Pharisees
The soul who is sincerely looking for salvation must take comfort in these words, rather than focusing on this sin against the Holy Spirit. For in order to utter any blasphemy against the Holy Spirit a person would be in such a state that such a thing would not bother him in the least. In fact he would be such a smug self righteous, self satisfied person that he really thinks he is ok with God and that all his good and righteous works will stand him in good stead when he appears before the judgement seat of Christ.
But if a person is sensitive to sin, even if they feel they do not have enough conviction of sin and very little love for Christ. It is quite evident that they have not committed this sin. And I am aware that this may offend some here. But rather than throwing this subject around carelessly against one another, we all should take care that we do not grieve the Spirit by offending sensitive souls who are observing and reading these posts.
For an answer to these things please refer to my last post. This is not just an intellectual exercise. I don't think we should be looking at the word of God as just another book. We are dealing with the eternal word of God and every time we approach these oracles of God we must do so in prayer and with reverence. There are many things in scripture that are hard to be understood.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
But both these truths are taught in scripture. On the one hand we are taught the doctrine of justification by faith alone in the epistle to the Romans. As Christians it is vital that we understand this doctrine clearly if we are to have peace with God.
One the other hand it is also clear that there are many scriptures warning us against temptation and sin. I have already explained why it is impossible for a true believer to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. And by the way this is the only place that it is mentioned and that against "unbelievers".
But a true believer can also fall into grievous sin, yet still remain a true believer. This also is seen in scripture. To say things like "a true believer can actually fall away" is tantamount to denying the clear teaching of Paul the apostle concerning justification by faith alone. I repeat. If we truly understood the doctrine of justification by faith alone we would not be asking all these other hypothetical questions which are calculated to destroy a true believer's peace with God.
My contention therefore is get this great doctrine of justification by faith firmly in your mind then go on and look at these other exhortations to holiness. For only when you understand the fundamentals of our faith, shall we be able to tackle these other things and indeed tackle temptation and sin in a Biblical way and with the strength of the Holy Spirit and not in our own strength.
A person who is constantly doubting his faith because in his eyes he has committed a certain sin, is really saying Christ is not sufficient for me. His blood does not make the foulest clean. Therefore it is essential that we fully understand what Christ accomplished on the cross. To say that he died for the sins of the elect is quite biblical, for it says that
It is also true to scripture to say
The Calvinist will say it means the world of the elect. The problem of course is not with scripture, but with our understanding of the scripture. But it is quite biblical to
It is also not only possible, but also definite that a believer shall fall into sin. Therefore there are warnings and encouragements to us concerning holiness and living the Christian life. But to say that a person becomes a non Christian because he falls into sin is to totally deny this tremendous doctrine of justification by faith that Paul the apostle so eloquently and clearly expounds in his letter to the Romans.
If we have not understood this wonderful doctrine that even the simplest believer understands, then in the very least it means that we are not enjoying full salvation and at the very worst that we haven't yet trusted in Christ for salvation. For if we were grounded and settled in our faith then this war within us will not still be going on. For we are told that the carnal mind is enmity against God. But what Christ did that day was to to pay for all our sins and therefore the believer in Christ is now at peace with God. If we are still doubting that there are some sins that have not been dealt with on the cross, then it means that we are still at war with God and that means that Christ has failed.
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Brother Bob
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I think that was a excellent response HP, due to the answers already been given that the a person with the Indwelling Holy Spirit can die committing adultery,
Strange that a Christian can't I repeat can't blaspheme against the Holy Ghost but He can with the same indwelt Holy Spirit commit all the sins that God says can't go to Heaven. Amazing!!!
1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Makes about as much sense as falling off a log backwards.
Good thing some don't know what it is or they would do it for sure.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: Listen once again to your logic. You imply that indeed this sin could exist and Scripture tells us plainly that if it does, God will not forgive man for it. I ask you again, using your own deductions: Was God not Omnipotent? Was God not able to forgive sins? Was God’s blood not able to atone for sins? Was God blood not sufficient to cover ALL sins? Do we serve a powerless God due to the fact He said He will not forgive blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?
Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: I am not playing mind games Amy. I am a seeker of truth. We are not robots of the Holy Spirit neither were we robots of the enemy of our souls. We are men, created in the image of God, totally capable of formulating intents as believers in agreement with or in direct opposition to the Holy Spirit. One would commit blasphemy the same way one would commit any other sin, by willful transgression in direct opposition to the truth God has revealed to us, choosing rather to believe and follow a known lie than the truth.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: May I interpret this for the list? What I hear Grahame saying, is that if one will just accept all of his presuppositions he takes to Scripture to interpret his views on justification, his forgone conclusions of holiness will magically appear as an angel of light with ‘the truth.’
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I get you point, I simply disagree with your conclusion.
Certainly not. God does not deal with us as machines. And there is nothing magical about it either. The Holy Spirit is the only one who can teach us and uphold us. But the doctrine of justification by faith alone is fundamental in our understanding the rest of the Christian message. We also can only understand it by the Holy Spirit.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
But now I'm dropping out of this thread. Because only God can enlighten men. May He give grace and wisdom unto us all. :BangHead:
Just one parting thought. In the light of these words
Just one parting thought. In the light of these words
If your wife was unfaithful to you, if you loved her would you forgive her? For on this question hangs the answer to the question of the forgiveness of God and adultery in the believer.
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Brother Bob
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No, the Lord is not the one saying that.
For me it's about perserverance to the end fighting the good fight. As much as I believe we are given the grace to be righteous and not just 'covered. This is what is lacking in your theology, His Grace to be righteous. All those sins you speak of are not righteous.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: That indeed appears to me as well to be the case.
If my arguments were as weak as some on this list, I too would desire to drop out. One bit of truth that was spoken, is that the Holy Spirit is the only one that can enlighten. It is obvious that some on this list are not listening.
Oh Lord, may it not be I.
Brother Bob
New Member
I pray it is not I too HP.
I can't see where preaching against sin is wrong and preaching for sin is right. If that is so, then they don't need a preacher or the Holy Spirit for sin will take its occasion.
I can't see where preaching against sin is wrong and preaching for sin is right. If that is so, then they don't need a preacher or the Holy Spirit for sin will take its occasion.
I am not the one being illogical here. God has promised in his Word to forgive ALL our sins. The atonement teaches that Christ paid for ALL of our sins, not all except one. To teach otherwise would be blasphemy in itself. Thus the event, by logic would be historical in nature--a specific warning to a specific group of people. If it were for every age it would contradict the very promises of God for all ages.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
While I don't agree with everyone on this particular thread I must say I don't understand why you keep using this lame line. No one on this post or any other post like it in the past has been preaching "for" sin. Brother Bob that just shows a lack of understanding to any view other than your own.
The argument does not lie in whether a Christian can sin or not (any sin for that matter), but what happens to a Christian that has unrepentant sin of any kind. That's where the rub is.
This notion that a Christian is free from sin or free from the ability to commit certain sins is just plain silly. However just because one has the ability to sin doesn't mean someone is preaching "for" sin. If you really want people to take you seriously it is high time you dropped that reasoning, because that dog isn't hunting and that duck has done sunk
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