Absolute Christian Perfection

[DHK]

B.Bob,
Graham brought up an excellent example. There are many examples of born again people that have had problems in their marriages. As many as 25% or more of marriages, even among beleivers end up in divorce. I don't believe in divorce for any reason. I believe that the word "fornication" given in Mat.5:32" is defiined as sexual immorality before marriage as the case would have been between Mary and Joseph when Joseph was minded to put Mary away, when he thought that she was with child before they were even married.

The Bible says quite clearly:
Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mark 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Once a divorced person remarries the Bible says they are living in a state of adultery. That is not a popular doctrine. It is what the Bible teaches. Accordingly there will be many Christians that will never enter heaven according to your theology.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I am not the one being illogical here.

HP: I have sufficiently presented my case. I will let the reader and the Holy Spirit decide who is logical and in accordance to truth and who is in error and has drawn false conclusions concerning the Word of God. If

 

[bound]

"Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery.” - Matthew 19:9

Except for immorality...

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Double post. Sorry!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bound: Except for immorality...

HP: I am in agreement with at least some of DHK’s presentation on this point. The word Jesus used was not a general term as some would like to indicate, but rather was one that distinguishes between sex between married partners or that of sex between unmarried partners. I fully realize that fornication is sometimes used to depict sexual immorality in a general sense, but in this case I do not feel that is the case.

If you walk into a courtroom and one is charged with fornication, it is clear what the charge consists of. The same goes for adultery. To confuse the two in any way is to misconstrue and confuse the true, distinct, and well established meaning of the terms. I believe Jesus as well understood these facts, and used the words in light of their well understood and distinct meanings.

It is interesting to note that the exceptional clause was given in only Matt., the gospel to the Jews. I believe there is a distinct reason why Jesus would speak to them in this way but would not use the exceptional clause when dealing with others as evidenced in the other gospels.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I would still like for I Am Blessed 16 to weigh in on the issue of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit if possible. Is it possible for any of us in this dispensation to commit this sin?

 

[Brother Bob]

The argument does not lie in whether a Christian can sin or not (any sin for that matter), but what happens to a Christian that has unrepentant sin of any kind. That's where the rub is.

DHK:
A person who commits adultery may go to heaven. He may even go to heaven while he is in the act of committing adultery. His sins are covered by the blood.
DHK:


It is just as bad to die with an unconfessed lie as it is to die with unconfessed adultery or in the act of adultery. What is the difference?
My sins are paid for. They were paid for at the time of salvation. They are under the blood.
Well said, Preach on!

Ed


So, now give an answer J. Jump!

 

[Brother Bob]

B.Bob,
Graham brought up an excellent example. There are many examples of born again people that have had problems in their marriages. As many as 25% or more of marriages, even among beleivers end up in divorce. I don't believe in divorce for any reason. I believe that the word "fornication" given in Mat.5:32" is defiined as sexual immorality before marriage as the case would have been between Mary and Joseph when Joseph was minded to put Mary away, when he thought that she was with child before they were even married.

The Bible says quite clearly:
Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mark 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Once a divorced person remarries the Bible says they are living in a state of adultery. That is not a popular doctrine. It is what the Bible teaches. Accordingly there will be many Christians that will never enter heaven according to your theology.
__________________
DHK

Why you say that?

If they are in adultery, I don't think they will go to Heaven, but the Lord gave us a reason to divorce.

Once a divorced person remarries the Bible says they are living in a state of adultery. That is not a popular doctrine. It is what the Bible teaches. Accordingly there will be many Christians that will never enter heaven according to your theology.__________________
DHK

Who gave you a right to change this scripture too. Please tell me.


not my answer but I agree with it.

For married people, he reminds them that God has commanded fidelity and remaining married. He makes sure that they understand that he cannot give his opinion, as he did with single people, because God has already mandated the holiness of marriage. There is no Godly mandate for single people to stay that way or get married. They can live in either state, but sexually active only in the married state.

He reminds them that if divorce does occur, that remarriage is not optional. There should be reconciliation. (except the cause of fornication)
__________________________________________________

 

[DHK]

Why you say that?

If they are in adultery, I don't think they will go to Heaven, but the Lord gave us a reason to divorce.

Once a divorced person remarries the Bible says they are living in a state of adultery. That is not a popular doctrine. It is what the Bible teaches. Accordingly there will be many Christians that will never enter heaven according to your theology.__________________
DHK

Who gave you a right to change this scripture too. Please tell me.

Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

I am quoting Scripture, and it gives no room for divorce. Neither did Jesus once ever condone divorce. I challenge you to direct me to one Scripture where divorce is ever condoned by Christ. In fact Christ's word were very explicit regarding marriage and divorce:

Matthew 19:5-6 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

[Brother Bob]

Matthew, chapter 5

"32": But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

I know you already know the words "saving" is in there which gives an exception, but I can't wait to see how you have fixed it.


Hey DHK; if we ever find anything we agree on we should send each other a gift or something.
:BangHead:

 

[DHK]

Matthew, chapter 5

"32": But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

I know you already know the words "saving" is in there which gives an exception, but I can't wait to see how you have fixed it.


Hey DHK; if we ever find anything we agree on we should send each other a gift or something.
:BangHead:

The word fornication was explained above. Its definition is "sex before marriage," as opposed to adultery, which is illicit sex after marriage. Fornication would have been applicable in the case of Joseph and Mary, while they were yet betrothed (not married), but Joseph was going to give Mary a writing of divorcement anyway. He was what we would call: "calling the wedding off." It would be for the cause of fornication, not adultery. He was going to do that until the angel intervened and caused him to understand that that which was in Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was told explicity not to divorce Mary, even though she was just her fiance. There is no reason given for divorce in the Bible, ever!
Jesus said "for the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed it, but from the beginning it was not so." Those words ought to be clear enough.

 

[Brother Bob]

The word fornication was explained above. Its definition is "sex before marriage,"

Unbelievable, He was talking about the married, not the unmarried.

 

[DHK]

Unbelievable, He was talking about the married, not the unmarried.

Words have meanings Bob. Fornication means sex before marriage. Look it up in a dictionary. There is a good reason why it is used here in opposition to the word adultery in the passages in Mark and in Luke when it speaks of those that are married and then divorced and remarried. If they remarry they don't commit fornication, they commit adultery. Never is the word fornication used in that sense. It means sex before marriage, as would have been the case between Joseph and Mary. The subject was divorce that the Jews brought up. Look at the context.

Matthew 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Now go back and read Mat.1. Joseph considered Mary his "wife" even when they were betrothed, before they actually came together in marriage. They took things a bit more serious than our society does today.
It just wasn't: Get married, and wake up the next morning and say: Oops I made a mistake.

 

[Brother Bob]

Greek

4202. porneia por-ni'-ah from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:--fornication.

strongs;
porneia
porneia
por-ni'-ah
from porneuw - porneuo 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:--fornication.

 

[DHK]

Greek

4202. porneia por-ni'-ah from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:--fornication.

strongs;
porneia
porneia
por-ni'-ah
from porneuw - porneuo 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively, idolatry:--fornication.

whoredom, fornication, almost always involves premarital sex. A whore is a prostitute. What is a prostitute? Unlikely that it is a married woman. Almost always it is a single female woman. Now take a look at Young's Literal translation:

Matthew 5:32 but I--I say to you, that whoever may put away his wife, save for the matter of whoredom, doth make her to commit adultery; and whoever may marry her who hath been put away doth commit adultery.

In other words, fornication is sex before marriage. The context bears the meaning out. If it meant adultery why would Jesus have to use a different word in the latter part of the verse. It wouldn't make sense would it?

 

[Brother Bob]

What you don't understand DHK is that fornication is adultery, but adultery is not fornication.

So in the case of the scripture.
Mat 5:32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Fornication in this case is adultery.

I mean it talking about a married person committing fornication, that don't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it is adultery because its a married person doing it.

You come up with some of the weirdest definitions of words and meaning of scriptures such as no one can commit the sin of Blasphemy now when God Himself said they could. You don't fool around, you go right to the top.

 

[DHK]

What you don't understand DHK is that fornication is adultery, but adultery is not fornication.

So in the case of the scripture.
Mat 5:32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Fornication in this case is adultery.

Nonsense.
"saving for the cause of adultery, causes her to commit adultery."
There are two different words that are used, and if Jesus meant adultery he would have used the same word. A different word is used for a reason. It is fornication for the word means "sex before marriage," and that is precisely the meaning of the verse, as is born out by other Scripture, especially the context of Mary and Joseph in Mat.1

 

[Brother Bob]

DHK; He was talking to the married and said "saving the cause of fornication".
It is you speaking nonsense. You are putting words and meanings in the scripture that are not there. You are not supposed to add to the scriptures.

Is someone don't agree with you, its nonsense, but its the scripture and again, He is talking to the married. How on earth can He be talking to the married and be talking about sex before marriage when talking about putting your wife away. You are so far off its pathetic.

 

[DHK]

Is someone don't agree with you, its nonsense, but its the scripture and again, He is talking to the married. How on earth can He be talking to the married and be talking about sex before marriage when talking about putting your wife away. You are so far off its pathetic.

Mark 10:11-12 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

There is no exception clause in Mark or Luke. It plainly says that if one divorces his wife and marries another he commits adultery. That is the plain teaching of the Scripture. If you want to argue against God, that is your perogative. The reason that such an "exception clause" is not mentioned in these two gospels is that Matthew was wrtten to the Jews. The Jewish culture was different. The Jews did have a culture that allowed for divorce during their betrothal or engagement period "for the cause of fornication," (sex before marriage). But that is not mentioned in Mark and Luke, and for obvious reasons.

But this is only one example of many sins that according to you will keep a believer out of heaven:
hatred--murder.
anger--murder
lustful looks--adultery
deception--lies.
covetousness
pride, and many many other sins that may or may not be mentioned in Rev.22

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: I mean it talking about a married person committing fornication, that don't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it is adultery because its a married person doing it.

HP: We should all enter this discussion with caution and even a bit of trepidation. There is not a family on this list that most likely has not been touched or involved in a divorce remarriage situation. Regardless what is said there are bound to be some that feel slighted, injured, or maligned.

First one needs to clearly recognize that the exception clause is found in only one of the gospels, and not even hinted at in any of the others. It is found only in Matt., noted as the gospel to the Jews. There is clear evidence why Jesus would grant an exception to the Jews when one understands their customs. The customs of the Jews were distinctly different that that of any other nation and for this reason I believe Jesus mentioned the exception clause to them alone.

The Jews considered an espoused couple as husband and wife. Read Scripture concerning Mary and Joseph and you will find this bore out. Once engaged, the only way they could separate was by a writing or bill of divorcement. If once engaged or upon the marriage bed, one found out that the other had lied or deceived their partner into believing that they were a virgin, the other partner had the right to give them a writing or bill of divorcement upon the grounds of sex before marriage, or fornication. It was to this specific situation that Jesus spoke the exception clause to a Jewish audience that understood exactly what he was speaking about. Jesus gave no indication whatsoever that apart from the circumstance of sex before marriage, and a fallacious and deceptive presentation of ones expressed state of purity before marriage upon which the marriage vows were firmly based, was the exception clause granted. If there was no such deceptive presentation as to ones state of purity found evident, once the marriage was consummated, no reason for divorce was ever expressed or granted by Christ.