Absolute Predestination

rlvaughn, I would be more than happy to vote in the poll, just tell me which one means "God's choice of the person and the person's choice of God"?
Sue

 

I think "salvation of a specific people" should be clarified. That could mean a group ("the entirety of whoever gets saved") or individuals ("each individual person who gets saved"). (I took it as individuals).

 

Brother Robert as you know some of the Primitive Baptist are called Absoluters... They hold to absolute predestination of all things which I do not. I believe if I'm not in error that this belief is more in the eastern part of the country. You will find more Absoluters in Jeffs part of the country than in California. I'm not sure if there are many in Texas but I can't be positive. I do not believe that God is repondsible for every act of mankind and evil as the absoluters do. That means God is to blame for sin and every act of the devil. Not only that but to hold this view is to say God crucified his own Son! That is blatant heresy! Predesination as I believe the scriptures teach is a prior destination for his children to be where he is in Heaven and enjoy the benefits of the Lord thru eternity... Doesn't get any better than that!... Brother Glen

 

Well, first of all, let me explain how I use the word predestine. Some people use that word only to apply to things God actively works, but I think that is an incorrect definition. I believe that it is more correct to use the word predestine for anything that God, before creation, decided would occur--anything that was His plan for history. Anything that was in the "counsel of His will" is predestined (or predetermined) by God to occur.

Secondly, I think that it is impossible to reconcile these things completely in our minds. There is a certain point where we just have to say, "That seems to be what scripture says is true, so I believe it, even if I can't explain exactly how it works."

How do I relate this to the "free will" of man? I don't, because I don't think man has "free" will. He has a will, he makes real choices, but his will is not "free." We make real choices because we look at all the alternative and make the decision that seems best to us, but all the factors that go into those choices are controlled by God--our genetic makeup, our circumstances, whether the Holy Spirit is working inside to work good choices or not, etc., are all within His control.

Evil as well as good is predetermined, but God is never the active agent of an evil choice. The Holy Spirit never moves anyone to do anything evil.

I hope this helps explain my position a bit and answer your questions. If you want to know more, feel free to ask.

 

Brother Robert am I understanding you correctly that you believe in the doctrine of Absolute Predestination of all things?... Brother Glen

 

Hi Bro. Glen and All.

Re, Absolute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists, yes we have some here in the east, but not as many as before, they are fragmented to the four winds, and many of them are returning to the regular Primitive Baptist faction. I went to church today at a church that did this very thing about 10 years ago.

The doctrine of Absolute Predestination is a hard one. I believe this, that God is God, and in that I define Him to be in my mind all powerful, all knowing, existing without beginning or end. To that extent, he would have knowledge of every thing whatsoever that has happened in the past or will happen in the future. He could have known some other course of events, and that would be the course of events that would transpire. I think it has to be this way. If you believe God is all knowing, and all powerful, existing from infinity backward to infinity forward there is no logical way around it, IMO.

Now,I further divide his predestination into an active and passive part. The active predestination is that of election of his people. The second part of predestination is passive, or permissive, or things that God suffers to be so.

Now having said all that, and probably gotten myself in trouble, I don't consider myself an Absoulte predestinarian. I do believe in Absolute foreknowledge. I also believe God is a being who doesn't exist in time as we understand it. I believe he created time for us.

And further, I don't think there is alot of difference in some of our [Primitive Baptists] people who claim to hold the "absolute predestination" and those who don't. But there are some who believe that God's will is entirely active, and there is no passive or suffering part to it. That is where I will part ways with them. Is this clear as mud?

This is why I don't discuss theological ideas on the computer, I can't see the reaction, to try to work out any misunderstanding.

Many years ago I met many of the people involved in the division of Primitive Baptists over absolute predestination. I don't think they should have ever divided over it, I think it was a linguistic problem for the most part on most of the people. The African-American Primitive Baptists had the same issue about the same time, ca. 1930, and worked it out much as I think I have in my mind, at least that is the impression I have from those I have discussed it with. Others might have different experiences.

I hope I have offended no one, but with trepedation that I have offended everyone. I think a lot of the argument is a linguistic one that I can offer no easy solution to fix.

Jeff Weaver

[ March 03, 2002, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

 

Jeff now that makes more sense!... Brother Glen

 

Actually, I believe something quite similar to that. I believe that God had a plan before the foundation of the world--a plan that included every minute detail--and He is working in each moment of history to bring that plan to fruition, either by actively working things or by selectively allowing things. But every single thing that happens happens by God's choice--a choice to either work something or allow it.

Where my viewpoint might differ from the play scenario in the quote is that I believe God accomplishes this without ever doing violence to the will of any human being, and without ever being the active agent of anything evil. We are not simply watching a play, but active participants in it. We will never vary from the script, but at the same time, we make real choices to do what we do.

But I really can't see how God could predestine big historical events without predestining the minute details, for every big event is made up of millions of minute details. And not even a sparrow falls apart from our Father....

 

(Emphasis mine on above quote) Something like the movie The Truman Show?

[ March 06, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

Well, He certainly knew every sneeze and cough before hand and chose not to suppress it. Isn't that planning for it?

As far as I can see, a God with omniscience is a God with a plan that includes every little tiny detail.