Actuality vs Potentiality?

[convicted1]

I have been thinking about this in view of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Is there a "potentiality" or an "actuality" to it? Is there an actualality(sp?) of being saved, or merely a chance?

 

[12strings]

I have been thinking about this in view of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Is there a "potentiality" or an "actuality" to it? Is there an actualality(sp?) of being saved, or merely a chance?

Is this a question about particular redemption, or something else?

 

[convicted1]

Is this a question about particular redemption, or something else?

I am not exactly sure. I am asking does the cross actually save people, or is there a chance one can be saved? Is the cross a "hope to be saved" or is it a surety?

 

[12strings]

I am not exactly sure. I am asking does the cross actually save people, or is there a chance one can be saved? Is the cross a "hope to be saved" or is it a surety?

I think it really all depends on one's stance on Election, and perhaps on foreknowledge.

1. If God Elected certain people to be saved, it can easily be stated that The cross Secured the salvation of those elect.

2. If there is some other understanding of election, then the cross supplied the means of salvation, but does not become effective until the gift of salvation is received by faith...though this is also the position of some 4-point Calvinists. That though God elected people to salvation, they are not ACTUALLY saved until they receive the gift by exercising their God-given faith.

3. Another view, compatible with free-will and perfect divine foreknowledge, is that God KNEW all who would believe in him, and so at the moment of Christ's death, in actuality "saved" all of them based on the faith that he knew they would have in the future.

 

[convicted1]

I think it really all depends on one's stance on Election, and perhaps on foreknowledge.

1. If God Elected certain people to be saved, it can easily be stated that The cross Secured the salvation of those elect.

Looking at it as one coming from the non-cal camp, it causes me grief. Did God send Jesus to die for all, knowing all wouldn't be saved? Or did He send Jesus to die for His elect?

2. If there is some other understanding of election, then the cross supplied the means of salvation, but does not become effective until the gift of salvation is received by faith...though this is also the position of some 4-point Calvinists. That though God elected people to salvation, they are not ACTUALLY saved until they receive the gift by exercising their God-given faith.

Again, is it an actual or possible atonement? Hmmm..

3. Another view, compatible with free-will and perfect divine foreknowledge, is that God KNEW all who would believe in him, and so at the moment of Christ's death, in actuality "saved" all of them based on the faith that he knew they would have in the future.

Yuck. If this rings true, man elected himself because God chose based on his/her willingness to be saved. Kinda akin to a "merit system", imo.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I think it really all depends on one's stance on Election, and perhaps on foreknowledge.

1. If God Elected certain people to be saved, it can easily be stated that The cross Secured the salvation of those elect.

2. If there is some other understanding of election, then the cross supplied the means of salvation, but does not become effective until the gift of salvation is received by faith...though this is also the position of some 4-point Calvinists. That though God elected people to salvation, they are not ACTUALLY saved until they receive the gift by exercising their God-given faith.

3. Another view, compatible with free-will and perfect divine foreknowledge, is that God KNEW all who would believe in him, and so at the moment of Christ's death, in actuality "saved" all of them based on the faith that he knew they would have in the future.

Pretty good synopses. The only difference I would have is in #3 that because God has perfect foreknowledge, salvation was as Paul put it, before the foundation of the world.

Not trying to get into an argument about it, but I do appreciate your the neutrality of your options.

 

[12strings]

Looking at it as one coming from the non-cal camp...


...Yuck. If this rings true, man elected himself because God chose based on his/her willingness to be saved. Kinda akin to a "merit system", imo.

Your last statement sounds like something a calvinist would say. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[12strings]

... I do appreciate your the neutrality of your options.

Thanks, I can be wishy-washy with the best of them!

 

[Tom Bryant]

Thanks, I can be wishy-washy with the best of them!

lol, never thought of you as wishy washy.

I think part of the problem I have with most of the options is that I could find Scripture that backs them all up and find Scriptures that refute them all.

I'm all for doctrinal purity, but I am not sure we will understand all this until we get to heaven. Until then, I'm going to let God be God, keep preaching the Word and try to help those who have never heard the Gospel hear it.

 

[Herald]

I am not exactly sure. I am asking does the cross actually save people, or is there a chance one can be saved? Is the cross a "hope to be saved" or is it a surety?

If there is a chance or hope that someone can be saved then salvation becomes dependent on the individual, not God. Forget the foreknowledge crowd that is going to say that man's choices were foreseen by God in eternity past. Of course they were, but that is not how God elects (Eph. 1 & Rom. 9). Salvation is intentional in that God decreed it for the individual in eternity and brings it to pass in time.

 

[kyredneck]

Actuality vs Potentiality?

I think 'Positional vs. Practical' may be the better articulation.

 

[DrJamesAch]

And yet the OP still has not gotten a direct answer to the questions and the follow up questions.

Need to make some popcorn cuz this is gonna get interesting

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If there is a chance or hope that someone can be saved then salvation becomes dependent on the individual, not God. Forget the foreknowledge crowd that is going to say that man's choices were foreseen by God in eternity past. Of course they were, but that is not how God elects (Eph. 1 & Rom. 9). Salvation is intentional in that God decreed it for the individual in eternity and brings it to pass in time.

Forget the foreknowledge crowd ...oh yea & really? So you want to dismiss a work of the Almighty soooo casually....REALLY?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think 'Positional vs. Practical' may be the better articulation.

Explain in more detail please.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not exactly sure. I am asking does the cross actually save people, or is there a chance one can be saved? Is the cross a "hope to be saved" or is it a surety?

Particular Redemption is a fact and necessity because of the unchangeable and eternal intercession of the eternal high priest.

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



It was actual not potential...it was finished:thumbsup:


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

[Herald]

Forget the foreknowledge crowd ...oh yea & really? So you want to dismiss a work of the Almighty soooo casually....REALLY?

I did not say forget foreknowledge. I said forget the foreknowledge crowd. There is a large contingent of those on the free will side who believe that God looked down the corridor of time and saw those who would choose Him, so He elected them. That is the crowd I am referring to, not foreknowledge itself. The foreknowledge view of election is a contrived doctrine that fails the test of Scripture.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I did not say forget foreknowledge. I said forget the foreknowledge crowd. There is a large contingent of those on the free will side who believe that God looked down the corridor of time and saw those who would choose Him, so He elected them. That is the crowd I am referring to, not foreknowledge itself. The foreknowledge view of election is a contrived doctrine that fails the test of Scripture.

That's fine...but you need to make yourself far more explisit than a quick blanket statement otherwise you could misrepresent something important.

 

[agedman]

lol, never thought of you as wishy washy.

I think part of the problem I have with most of the options is that I could find Scripture that backs them all up and find Scriptures that refute them all.

I'm all for doctrinal purity, but I am not sure we will understand all this until we get to heaven. Until then, I'm going to let God be God, keep preaching the Word and try to help those who have never heard the Gospel hear it.

A man after my own heart!!!!

This is an excellent post.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Perhaps those of the Cal camp find the truth of grace in the full righteousness and justice of God expressed in love and mercy is the most accurate view faithful to Scripture.

Perhaps those of the non-cal camp find that the truth of grace is in the love and mercy compelling modification to of the full righteousness and justice of God is the most accurate view faithful to Scripture.

It is the Word of God that saves - in season and out of season it must be preached.

Even when proclaimed by an unregenerate heathen preacher, the Scriptures can and do save.

 

[agedman]

Particular Redemption is a fact and necessity because of the unchangeable and eternal intercession of the eternal high priest.

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



It was actual not potential...it was finished:thumbsup:


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Icon, You did good!

You provided the Scriptures that accurately answered the question.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Those same Scriptures also comment on another point in which the OP did not mention directly, but is (by the two considerations) needing to be addressed.

THIS part is important that address:

12 But this man (Christ), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (note not "progressively" but "positionally" - the believer is already sanctified) (note 2: This sanctification is not just to gentile, but look below to the Israeli)


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

​

This part of the passage is a BIG problem for the "non-cal" folks who do not consider such items as "irresistible grace" as Scriptural.

For as much as they would "determine" such a view is untrue, here it is clearly stated as decreed by God that it WILL happen, and the folks have NO CHOICE but to respond.

GOD does the work, man only responds.

How can ANY premillennial person's view not embrace irresistible grace based upon this passage alone?

The whole premillennial thinking must support that God WILL "put a hook" into the heart and mind of the Israeli folks - a hook that cannot be resisted, and will present them understanding and acceptance of the Messiah at His coming.

Now, I know that Icon is not Pre-mill.

But, that isn't the issue.

Icon would read this whole passage as addressed to believers - which it is!!!!

The gentile AND the Israeli believers.

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not exactly sure. I am asking does the cross actually save people, or is there a chance one can be saved? Is the cross a "hope to be saved" or is it a surety?

God decreed that thru the death of jesus, ALL sin debts were paid in full, so was actual salvationds provided for all whom would be receiving Jesus as their Lord and saviour!

In truth, ONLY those whose sins were atoned for will be saved!