ad hominem argument

I have seen this many times in the last few months from posters in a debate when all other arguments have been debunked. In most cases, in the debate world, those that fall into ad hominem are viewed as having lost the real debate and trying to get as many hits in as they can before being closed down by the other side. Or as a means that while they are losing the real debate, by using ad hominem argument, they may change the subject of the debate in order to hide weak areas in their argument there by dodge the subject and place focus on areas that they feel they have the upper hand.

Where as this is a given tool and strong tool in the debate arena to use to win debates at all cost, what does it say about us as believers when it comes to doctrine? Are we to “win” at all cost? Is our focus even to be toward winning? When it comes to doctrine, are we to win the game, or look for the truth?

We should all know the source. It is our DUTY to know what was said by the man, in the context of the subject. As believers, what is our final source? What context must we make SURE we understand to be right? If it is said by a man that red is red and no matter who it was that said red is red, if we find in our final source red is green and we understand this to be true in full context of our source, the one that said red is red is wrong. Yet on the other hand if we see from our final source that indeed just as the one that claimed red to be red, it is in fact red, and we understand this to be true in full context, it is our DUTY to agree and not attack the man that said this, for if we do attack the man, we are really attacking our final source, which did agree with the man.

Should we play the ad hominem card in doctrine? Should not our final source be Gods Word, no matter who said it? What do you think?

 

WOW! A very powerful verse as to why we could not. I must agree with you Dale.

Now even more, look at the class of words which we find this. It is listed right after the word "murder". ouch!! In this view, it is no small thing to debate and bring strife only to prove our point at all cost. In Gods eyes, this is no better then murder. But then again, all sin is like that, is it not? We place value on sins, thinking one is not as bad as the other. Yet as we see in James if you sin, you are guilty of breaking the whole Law in Gods eyes.

This would mean as sinners we are all in the same boat and there is only one thing that would help us. That being the blood of Christ. Ted Bundy killed many young ladies. Some of those ladies never heard the gospel before Ted killed them. Ted in his last year before he was put to death claimed Christ as Lord. I have no idea if he meant it or not. It is not for me to say. But I know this, If Ted did ask Christ into his heart, he is in heaven today. Ted was a evil man. Ted was on his way to hell. Yet I was on my way to hell before I was saved as well. I have killed no one. But I was in the same boat as Ted..lost. As I said before, Ted may have killed ladies that never heard the gospel. Yet Ted is in heaven if he was turly saved. Is that fair? Is it fair that these ladies never heard the gospel because Ted killed them, and now he is saved and they maybe in hell? No..to us it may not be fair...but..that is grace. Grace is not what we do, but what Christ has done. Christ can save me, you or Ted.

The truth is sometimes beyond our logic. When looking for truth, it is not that we must understand it, but just believe it. To deny the truth and run from it, only plays us as the fool.

 

Oh yeah?? well let me tell you something my you big......aaaaw ...well...never mind.

 

Hello Bob,

This is only true in that I should include myself in any wrong tatic used. I am not above doing wrong. I sin nearly daily...mainly with my pride. Yet please understand, all tatics are not wrong. If we use the Bible and not attack the preacher, where would we go wrong?

You are however wrong to say i consider no Scripture when it goes against Calvinism. In no way can you know the battle that I have come though in my walk with the Lord. I took on parts of Calvinisim from the beginning not even knowing that there was a "doctrine of grace". I saw election on my own. How? it's in the Bible. Its plain as day..to me it is. It took a few years before I said I agree with all 5 points.

You are wrong for you have posted on treads that I have started saying..."this is a hard verse for a Calvinist"...and another which said something like..."How does a Calvinist handly this verse?". And there have been others you have not seen. To you it makes no sense. To me I know in my heart that it is the Gospel. Bob, I would serve me no reason to believe a lie and tell others it was the truth, if deep inside I felt it was wrong. I would be a fool to do such a thing. I do not hold to Calvinism, for it makes no sense. I hold to it, for it is the Gospel pure and simple.

Bob, I will be glad to address any verse you have. You have to understand at times all of us can have 10 debates going on at one time. Its hard to address each post. It is for me, because i type slow. Last night It seems like I could not type a full post when I had 3-4 more new post addressed to me.



In Christ..James

 

humm. Not the best tread to post a post like this.

oh well..

 

Hello Bob,

It is funny that you bring this up. I had no idea, never in my life, did I think that any one had a problem with grace. Sure, I knew about the debate and I have been part of it for years. But before most held to parts of the doctrine of grace yet not all. Things have really changed. Now..grace is attacked on all fronts. I took 4 months off from posting and when I came back, 2-3 posters that were middle of the road are now fully haters of grace. Its sad to me. But, we all must believe in our heart.

Its never right for anyone to take this debate to far. One of the reasons I started this tread is a way to get something out in the open. Those that hold to free will can give their own list of ways which they are wrongly talked about, but I would like to give a list of things thrown at those that hold to the doctrine of grace with no reason or meaning and shows no understanding of the facts.

Calvinist follow a man. How many times have I heard this? In all my days here on earth I have yet to meet one man or lady that worshipped John Calvin. Now there may be some that do, but this is all you here from the other side. why? Its because of the name Calvinism. Non-Calvinism link the man to the doctrine. I guess its fair in a sense, yet no one worships John.

The term, "Calvinism," is not the name by which we Calvinists prefer to have their faith called; nor do we prefer to call ourselves "Calvinists." I did not call myself a Calvinist at 1st. Others labled me this. Calvin was the name of a man, a great servant of God, John Calvin. He was one of the Reformers by whom the Holy Spirit reformed the Church in the 16th century. To call ourselves "Calvinists" and our faith "Calvinism" leaves the impression that we follow a man and that these beliefs are the invention of a man. In fact, ....these terms originally were terms of derision used by our enemies, as were also the names, "Christian," and "Protestant." Therefore, from the very beginiing, Calvinists called themselves "Reformed,". They deliberately distinguished themselves from the other great branch of the Protestant Reformation, the Lutheran Church, which did call itself by the name of a man (contrary to the wishes of Luther himself).

Nevertheless, "Calvinism" and "Calvinist" are useful terms, today. They are widely known, even though that be, in part, through the attack upon, and reproach of, Calvinism by its enemies. Also,..... the name, "Calvinist," is embraced by persons and churches who are not Reformed, but who confess those tenets of Calvinism which they call "the doctrines of grace." "Calvinism" has come to stand for certain doctrines, a certain system of truth. We have no objection to calling these doctrines "Calvinism" as long as two things are clearly understood.

Please let it be clear. It must be understood that not the man, John Calvin, but Holy Scripture is the source of them.

2nd..., it must be understood that we who embrace these truths are not disciples of a man, Calvin, but are concerned exclusively to follow God's eternal Son in our flesh, Jesus Christ, exactly by confessing these doctrines

**********
THEREFORE......when said

John Calvin killed someone...and so?
John Calvin baptised babies....our point?
John Calvin kicked the cat.....and the dog too..so what???

IT DOES NOT MATTER!!!

This is not about John Calvin. Most that hold to the doctines of grace have not even read Calvin 1st hand. But, they have read the Bible. If you want to talk about doctrine, lets talk about doctrine...not about a old sinner just as you and I.

I call myself a Calvinist now..for it is much easier. And when I say Calvinist it is meant..doctrines of grace.



In Christ..James

 

I said....

Let me be clear...it was I..not you that started the tread. I am a Calvinist. It was YOU that claimed I had no problem with any verse. It was YOU that said I twist. I posted this as to remind you that I for one have been open.

 

Peter 2:2...

I'll start a tread on this tomorrow.