Adam's Sin or Our Sins?

[drfuss]

This morning at our men's meeting (SBC church), an SBC minister stressed the point that we are all guilty and condemned because of Adam's sin. Later, I phoned him and questioned him about that and quoted the paragraph below from the SBC BF&M about us being condemned because of our own sins. Although he did not have the BF&M in front of him, he said he was very familiar with the BF&M and saw no conflict with us being guilty of Adam's sin.

The minister may be a Calvinists. My question is: Do Calvinists and Non-Calvinists take different positions on this issue?

III. Man
"Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love."

 

[Van]

Here is my two cents worth: I am a non-Calvinist, but I am not an Arminian either.

We are condemned because we are conceived in iniquity. This is before we have done anything good or bad, before we know our right hand from our left. We were made sinners.

Now where many diverge into various views, is are we condemned because we are guilty of Adams sin? No! A sinful state is a state separated from God. So we are conceived in a sinful state, separated from God. Not because we are guilty of Adam's sin, but because of the consequence of Adam's sin.

I am not too sure I understand what was meant by inheriting a nature and an environment inclined toward sin, I would put it that because we are conceived in a "fallen state" we are (1) separated from God - spiritually dead, and (2) we are corrupt - predisposed to sin, such that we all fall short of the glory of God.

So where I differ, is that we are not under condemnation when we commit our first sin, we are condemned already from conception. And that condemnation would result in eternal punishment, eternal separation from God. Nothing, not even the absence of volitional sin, can bridge that gap of separation and allow us to not be separated from God. The cross alone bridges that gap, and only when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, does God alone transfer us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of God.

But what about the babies who die? They do not go to heaven, in my dubious opinion, but they rest in peace, with their existence ended without ever being tormented, because they were not guilty of Adam's sin, nor were they guilty of committing a sin by their own volition. So they get eternal punishment - separated from God, but not eternal torment. Those that live long enough to commit sin volitionally, they get just punishment for their deeds (misdeeds) which includes torment for as long as God requires to achieve His perfect justice. I think if a person sins a lot, they get a lot of torment, but if a so called "good person" but a non- believer gets less torment, Gehenna is more tolerable for them.

And yes, I know almost nobody agrees with me.

 

[revmwc]

I delve into this later and I am neither calvanist nor arminian.

When Adam sinned he died spiritually immediately and physically later. God promised a saviour Adam and Eve believed and had life restored. We inherited that Spiritual death and at the same time the Old Sin Nature at birth it was passed from the father Adam to all his children. Now this is important Christ was not descnded from an earthly father so He was Born Spiritually alive and without an OSN it had to be this way so he could become sin for us who knew no sin, (He Neither sinned Nor had the Nature too.) So we have the Old Nature inherited from Adam and therefore sin (the Old Sin Nature) reigns in our lives until salvation. Then the Old Sin Natures domination of our lives is lost but not the Nature itself and a new Spiritual nature is in us to take charge and the tow war daily for control. We must choose daily to walk for God or for sin.

 

[drfuss]

Matt. 1:21 "for He will save His people from their sins"

Note that it does not say anything about saving His people from Adam's sins or from their sinful condition. I believe the BF&M shown in the OP is correct.

 

[Tom Butler]

Matt. 1:21 "for He will save His people from their sins"

Note that it does not say anything about saving His people from Adam's sins or from their sinful condition. I believe the BF&M shown in the OP is correct.

Yeah, that's the way I see it, too.

Now, there's no question that our sinful nature inherited from Adam will manifest itself in volitional sin. But our condemnation comes from our sins, not our sin nature.

 

[Van]

Hi Drfuss, you appear to be saying that Jesus saving His people from their sins, rules out saving them from their sinful state of being conceived in iniquity. He does both. Colossians 1:13. The realm of darkness is our sinful state of separation from God. We go from being spiritually dead "in Adam" to being spiritually alive "in Christ."

 

[Tater77]

Yep, we got a sinful nature from Adam, but not guilt. Read Ezekiel 18.

 

[webdog]

This thread is proof augustinian original sin is not confined to the cal-arm debate as 2 non cal's here agree with it and one cal doesn't. What does Scripture state so plainly my 5 year old understands it? We were dead in our trespasses and sins that we used to walk in. Case closed.

 

[revmwc]

Matt. 1:21 "for He will save His people from their sins"

Note that it does not say anything about saving His people from Adam's sins or from their sinful condition. I believe the BF&M shown in the OP is correct.

His people have not yet been saved from their sins, and won't be until the tribulation and then into the miliinium. The Jews sins let's see, failure to follow the command to keep the sabbath as commanded, they never let the land rest on the seventh year, and went into captivity. They killed the prophets, they sought other god's. Shall we list anymore?
Joseph knew prophecy Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He knew that spoke of Messiah. So this was the Angel poointing out to Joseph that Mary would bring forth the Messiah. Has nothing to do with us our how we are it has to do with the nation Israel and prophecy.

 

[revmwc]

Looks like it.

 

[drfuss]

This thread is proof augustinian original sin is not confined to the cal-arm debate as 2 non cal's here agree with it and one cal doesn't. What does Scripture state so plainly my 5 year old understands it? We were dead in our trespasses and sins that we used to walk in. Case closed.

The reason I thought this might be a Calvinist/Non-Calvinist issue is that since Calvinists believe we actually have nothing to do with deciding to receive salvation (election), Calvinists might also believe that we have nothing to do with being in a sinful condition, i.e. Adam's fault, not ours.

Apparently, I was mistaken.

 

[webdog]

I do believe more cals than non hold to it. From my experience it seems to be a baptist thing, too. Not sure why we embraced this rc teaching and left off the infant baptism part of the creed as they go hand in hand. Even the rc's realized the problem with this doctrine and created a sinless Mary.

 

[Skandelon]

There are two passages I want to throw into the mix:

2 Cor. 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.

And

Rom 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Both of these indicate that prior to God's message of reconciliation being sent into all the world God didn't count men's sin against them and they go "unpunished." How do you all think that relates to this discussion regarding Adam's sin?

I mean, if God is not even holding men accountable for sins they actually committed in order to allow them mercy through faith, what makes us think He is holding us accountable for the sin of Adam still? Didn't the atonement of Christ handle that problem once and for all?

 

[revmwc]

Genesis 5: 3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

We are all born in the likeness of Adam. What is Adam's like sin, we have the Old Sin Nature in us.

Rom 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Because of Adam's sin judgement came on all mankind through Adam, so was Adam Christ father or was His Father God. The daughter never passes on the family name nor the inherientence. Upon receiving Christ by faith we have His righteousness imputed to us just as Abraham did, all because of Faith.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many were made sinners who wasn't or isn't? The only one I know is Jesus. Enoch might be close but he had an earthly father which meant sin was in him.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

When God set the standard with the law it showed just how offensive we all are to Him.

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin which sin Adams or is there a nature in us to sin, when the Old Sin nature reigns in us so also did Spiritual death as unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The natural (dominated by the Old Sin Nature) sinful man can't understand Spiritual things because he is spiritually dead. If he had a living spirit in him then he would understand spiritual things, we only begin to understand the things of the Spirit we our Human Spirit is regenerated at salvation.


Romans 6: 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Positional Death)

As believers we are dead to the domination sin (positional death, we are positionally now in Jesus dead to the domination of the OLD Sin Nature and OUR POSITION is now in Christ) had on us prior to salvation.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Don't let the sin nature dominate your life again, don't let the lust influence you anymore.

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

We have been made alive in Christ were dead (Spiritually) in tresspass and sin. If not Spiritual death what death is it here? You weren't physically dead but Paul says the believer was dead, so how were you dead if not spiritually?

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

We walked in sin, in the domination of the Sin nature in the old walk.

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Here we see Paul confirm it more we were "BY NATURE children of wrath" that Nature if not an Old sin nature is what nature?

So not Augustine and not the RC's taught this but Paul did.

 

[webdog]

The same Paul that said he was alive once apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and he died?

All of your talking points are augustinian whether you realize it or not.

Scripture is quite clear...we were once dead in OUR trespasses and sins that WE used to walk.

 

[revmwc]

The same Paul that said he was alive once apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and he died?

All of your talking points are augustinian whether you realize it or not.

Scripture is quite clear...we were once dead in OUR trespasses and sins that WE used to walk.

Define how we were dead? What death how were we dead if not Spiritually, then what did Paul mena by "dead"?

 

[webdog]

Define how we were dead? What death how were we dead if not Spiritually, then what did Paul mena by "dead"?

Not sure I understood your question, can you rephrase it?

 

[convicted1]

This morning at our men's meeting (SBC church), an SBC minister stressed the point that we are all guilty and condemned because of Adam's sin. Later, I phoned him and questioned him about that and quoted the paragraph below from the SBC BF&M about us being condemned because of our own sins. Although he did not have the BF&M in front of him, he said he was very familiar with the BF&M and saw no conflict with us being guilty of Adam's sin.

The minister may be a Calvinists. My question is: Do Calvinists and Non-Calvinists take different positions on this issue?

III. Man
"Man is the special creation of God, made in His own image. He created them male and female as the crowning work of His creation. The gift of gender is thus part of the goodness of God's creation. In the beginning man was innocent of sin and was endowed by his Creator with freedom of choice. By his free choice man sinned against God and brought sin into the human race. Through the temptation of Satan man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin. Therefore, as soon as they are capable of moral action, they become transgressors and are under condemnation. Only the grace of God can bring man into His holy fellowship and enable man to fulfill the creative purpose of God. The sacredness of human personality is evident in that God created man in His own image, and in that Christ died for man; therefore, every person of every race possesses full dignity and is worthy of respect and Christian love."

Here is what I posted in another thread; chew on this and tell me what you think on this, okay???

I hope I can break down a few walls in here and show you all why I believe we are born "alive" unto God!!

Let's go back to the beginning and I'll do my best to make a presentable case for y'all to "chew" on!!

Gen. 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Now here is the Hebrew word used for "good" in all these verses.

Thayer's definition:
Towb Strong's 2896 Hebrew
1) good, pleasant, agreeable

a) pleasant, agreeable (to the senses)

b) pleasant (to the higher nature)

c) good, excellent (of its kind)

d) good, rich, valuable in estimation

e) good, appropriate, becoming

f) better (comparative)

g) glad, happy, prosperous (of man's sensuous nature)

h) good understanding (of man's intellectual nature)

i) good, kind, benign

j) good, right (ethical)

So, everything, including mankind, is made "good" by God. Yes, including us. When He breathed into us the "breath of life", we beacame a living soul, or God made us "dead" which is a bad thing.(I am talking our our souls being made good, here.

It's over time that we willfully sin, and from that point we die the spiritual death and in need of saving.

Here are two questions I want someone/anyone to answer for me:

Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

So, how can someone be "spiritually dead", and be "alive without the law"?
Next, how can you "slew" a dead thing? I showed in one of my previous post the Greek word for "slew", and it meant to kill. So how can something "dead" be killed?

Ezek. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Again, here are two verses that plainly states that the soul that sinneth it shall die. If we are born "spiritually dead", how can our soul "die" where its already dead? Can someone please answer this "biblically"(sp?)?

Look at Hosea 3:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:

3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.

This right here is Jesus, plain as day! Hosea "bought" Gomer back, eventhough she was his wife. That's us! We belonged to Christ by our first birth(spiritually speaking), but when we willfully sinned against God, we became a "harlot", being alienated from God, because we served satan from that time, until Jesus' precious blood is applied to our souls!! Praise His sweet name!! I hope this doesn't muddy the waters!! Batter up!!

So, tell me what you agree and disagree with. Does this answer any of your questions??? Please let me know!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Define how we were dead? What death how were we dead if not Spiritually, then what did Paul mena by "dead"?

I know this isn't directed towards me, but I'd like to give an answer, provided I have understood the question(s) posed here.

Spiritual death= seperation from God.

Natural death= speration of our soul from our natural body

We die spiritually unto God after God shows us our lost condition, and we choose to not believe Him. Its then, and only then that we die spiritually.

Rom. 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

What is sin? It is a transgression of the law!! So Rom. 4:15 answers what causes us to die spiritually. We are dead in trespasses and sins.

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[revmwc]

I know this isn't directed towards me, but I'd like to give an answer, provided I have understood the question(s) posed here.

Spiritual death= seperation from God.

Natural death= speration of our soul from our natural body

We die spiritually unto God after God shows us our lost condition, and we choose to not believe Him. Its then, and only then that we die spiritually.

Rom. 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

What is sin? It is a transgression of the law!! So Rom. 4:15 answers what causes us to die spiritually. We are dead in trespasses and sins.

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


i am I AM's!!

Willis

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Here in lies the problem if you are alive spiritiually prior to salvation then you will understand the things of the Spirit. All mankind except Christ has been born spiritually dead.

Adam was created with a:
Body the flesh that houses who we are
He was born with a soul = that is who we are, our personality, our thought process, our being
He (Adam) was born Spiritually alive and had fellowship with God.
Adam fell:
He still was alive in the body.
He still had the same personality, thoguht process he was still Adam.
He died to fellowship with God, when God came looking for him he was hiding from God and he confessed his sin and God promised to provide a means of salvation and Adam believed God.

We are born children of Adams fallen state. We have a physical human body. WE have a soul, that is our personality, our thought process it is who we are, but we are born as Paul says dead in tresspass and sins, that means we are seperated from God's fellowship, seperated from God in time on earth and can't understand spiritual thing, thus we are spiritually dead in tresspasses and sins.
When we receive Christ we are born Spiritually, we begin to understand spiritual things they are no longer foolishness to us. The Old natural desire to sin is still in us for it is in our soul, and it will not be gone until we die physically. It no longer has domination over us, Paul said
Romans 6: 12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." As a believer don't let the Old Sin nature reign in your life again, don't let it reign Paul says in your mortal body. He makes it very clear sin can dominate, it can reign in the life of a believer. So that Ephesians 2: 1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

The death here is Spiritual death. You were dead in tresspasses and sins when from birth, you were born Spiritually dead.

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.