Ahtiests are without excuse.

tulpje · Mar 5, 2002

Are athiests without excuse?

http://www.wels.net/sab/frm-bel.html
"God has revealed himself in nature. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands" (Psalm 19:1). "Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). So there is no excuse for atheists. Since the requirements of the law are written on people's hearts, the consciences of people also bear witness that there is a God to whom they are accountable (Romans 2:15). However, nature and conscience present only a partial revelation of God and one that is not able to show the way to heaven."

Yes. What is even worst, is having God, believing God... The Holy Spirit dwelling in you, and denying him. That is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and is the unforgivable sin.

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

post-it · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by tulpje:
Are atheists without excuse?

Yes. What is even worst, is having God, believing God... The Holy Spirit dwelling in you, and denying him. That is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and is the unforgivable sin.

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Tulpje, you are going to have a hard time proving that argument in the context of the whole Bible. Jesus made it clear on more than one occasion that there is no sin that cannot be forgiven. You have one passage you are holding on to here to refute many other passages that say the opposite. I contend that the writing of that passage doesn't mean what you think it means on first sight. I have told my wife many times that "I will never forgive you for that" or "That is unforgivable", it is an emphasis that doing that action is very serious and can carry a heavy toll.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater ok? There are very few Christians that don't doubt or deny Christ at some time in their walk. That is what faith is all about. Even Peter who was there first hand, an eye-witness, denied Christ. Christ's forgiveness is without limit, just as God is, just as our forgiveness should be.

tulpje · Mar 5, 2002

an example would be being a baptized child of God the suddenly deciding to become a Muslim who worship a false god or an athiest who does not believe in the existance of God. This one sin will not be forgiven.

This is what God has done for you. He has created you and all the earth. You find the Lord in nature.

Psalm 8
1 O Lord , our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

You have set your glory
above the heavens.
2 From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise [2]
because of your enemies,
to silence the foe and the avenger.

3 When I consider your heavens,
the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars,
which you have set in place,
4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings [3]
and crowned him with glory and honor.

6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands;
you put everything under his feet:
7 all flocks and herds,
and the beasts of the field,
8 the birds of the air,
and the fish of the sea,
all that swim the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord , our Lord,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

So you owe it to God to thank, praise, serve, and obey him.

THE FIRST ARTICLE
(Creation)

I believe in God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

What does this mean?

I believe that God created me and all that exists, and that he gave me my body and soul, eyes, ears and all my members, my mind and all my abilities. And I believe that God still preserves me by richly and daily providing clothing and shoes, food and drink, house and home, spouse and children, land, cattle, and all I own, and all I need to keep my body and life. God also preserves me by defending me against all danger, guarding and protecting me from all evil. All this God does only because he is my good and merciful Father in heaven, and not because I have earned or deserved it. For all this I ought to thank and praise, to serve and obey him. This is most certainly true.

tulpje · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by dogwood:
tulpje,

We don't want an excuse. We don't need an excuse. And since we don't believe in the Bible, quoting it isn't going to make us feel bad. Hope this doesn't ruin your day.

dogwood

Oh, and Mod's? Given the response to Chekmate's posts, where does this one fall under "baiting"?
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In that case I would like to know why you are coming to this board? Isn't there an "Athiest" board where you can chat with likeminded people???
I hope that the moderators are paying attention to this thread. If you aren't coming here to hear the word, you must be coming here to harass us.

tulpje · Mar 5, 2002

And also, if you don't listen to the word of God, then what do you listen to? You are dead in your sins. I used to be just like you too... Praise the Lord that I was saved!!!! I'll tell you what. This is a matter of eternal life or death. And if you don't change your ways... your going to die!

[ March 05, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

post-it · Mar 5, 2002

Legend:
Hope does not raise the dead. Nor does anything else.
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1. The Bible does not say that Hope will raise the dead. (Fallacy of Equivocation)

2. If you make an assertion such as "nothing raises the dead", you should at least make a partial effort to prove your conclusion. How can anyone take your statement seriously with no supporting evidence?

So far, even you must agree that it would be illogical to believe that nothing or no one, raises the dead based on your argument.

post-it · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by Legend:
Yes. If someone were to come into existence with no actual knowledge of reality, it would be fallacious of him or her to accept my statement of "Nothing comes back to life" offhand.

But then again, no one like this exists. And, of course, anything at all can be explained away when you begin invoking Goddidit. Which would happen, eventually, in any argument between reality and religion.
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No, not necessarily, you keep assuming too much. I can prove you wrong by claiming that there have been many doctors that have brought people back from the dead. They have in fact, raised the dead. See, no Goddit!

I could also go on to make the connection that if at one time man couldn't raise the dead and that it was not logical to believe that the dead could live again, what is the difference in your current belief that a spirit can't be brought back to life even by man in some distant future. If man could bring back the spirit, then certainly God could have always brought the spirit back to life just as he has brought the dead (in body) back to life in the past too. See Lazarus for details.

post-it · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by tulpje:
And if you don't change your ways... your going to die!
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I’m sure it is not really my place to say this,... but…
Telling people who are on a sinking boat that they are going to die and do so in a sarcastic sounding way, is not very helpful, nor Christian-like.

Maybe you should wait a while before continuing to engage atheists who are using your statements and off-handed remarks to their advantage. I just don't see that you are getting anywhere except to blow off a little aggression inside yourself.

Please take this in the kind spirit it is given. We all have bad days.

[ March 05, 2002, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

jaycwru · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by post-it:

No, not necessarily, you keep assuming too much. I can prove you wrong by claiming that there have been many doctors that have brought people back from the dead. They have in fact, raised the dead. See, no Goddit!
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Huh? Whoa... did I miss something here?

I'll venture two guesses...
Either you are equating stopping of the heart with death (this is NOT the medical definition of death, and far from it).

Or you have been watching too many sci-fi movies.
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DanielS25 · Mar 6, 2002

I would point out to Tulpje that this a free for all forums part of the board which was included to open up, I think at least, a discussion between baptists and non-baptists. So if you have a problem with that, perhaps you should take that up with the webmaster. Why all of the prejudice against non-believers anyway? So if Christ was raised from the dead what hard evidence do you have. I think that is a fair question as Paul said that the Resurrection is at the heart of chrisianity although not in those exact words.
"And if you don't change your ways... your going to die!" We will all die someday, regardless of whether we are a christian or not. If you meant to say that if we don't change our ways we will go to hell, well what hell and what evidence do you have that hell even exists? It sounds like you just needed a place to rant against non-believers. I don't think you are winning any souls by doing so.

tulpje · Mar 6, 2002

"So if Christ was raised from the dead what hard evidence do you have. I think that is a fair question as Paul said that the Resurrection is at the heart of chrisianity although not in those exact words."

I have faith.

"well what hell and what evidence do you have that hell even exists?"

God said so in his holy, inerrant, errorless, inspired word. That is all the proof I need. I have faith.

In Christ,

tulpje
(little tulip)

judy m villeneuve · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by DanielS25:
I would point out to Tulpje that this a free for all forums part of the board which was included to open up, I think at least, a discussion between baptists and non-baptists. So if you have a problem with that, perhaps you should take that up with the webmaster. Why all of the prejudice against non-believers anyway? So if Christ was raised from the dead what hard evidence do you have. I think that is a fair question as Paul said that the Resurrection is at the heart of chrisianity although not in those exact words.
"And if you don't change your ways... your going to die!" We will all die someday, regardless of whether we are a christian or not. If you meant to say that if we don't change our ways we will go to hell, well what hell and what evidence do you have that hell even exists? It sounds like you just needed a place to rant against non-believers. I don't think you are winning any souls by doing so.
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I was also under the impression that the Free For All Forums were here for us non-believers to interact with you believers. Is this not true?

The reason I come here is because I am intrigued by people whose world view is different from mine. Most of the other atheists I've met on the Baptist Board have gone out of their way to be polite. If you can point to a specific instance when we haven't been, please do, and we'll try to do better in the future.

(By the way, Daniel, just wanted to tell you, great job with the paragraphs! )

tulpje · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by Legend:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
And also, if you don't listen to the word of God, then what do you listen to?You are dead in your sins. I used to be just like you too... Praise the Lord that I was saved!!!! I'll tell you what. This is a matter of eternal life or death. And if you don't change your ways... your going to die!
Click to expand...

You know what? One day, you're going to die too. And guess what else? Hope does not raise the dead. Nor does anything else.[/QUOTE]I have eternal life in Christ. Unbelievers will certainly die.

John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am I claim to be>, you will indeed die in your sins."

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

John 1
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world, have mercy on us;
Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world, have mercy on us;
Lamb of God, you take away the sin of the world;
Grant us peace;
Grant us peace.

John 17:14
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.

Love & peace in Christ, who is and was and who is to come. The Almighty. Amen

To God the Glory

tulpje
(little tulip)

[ March 06, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

post-it · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by jaycwru:
Either you are equating stopping of the heart with death (this is NOT the medical definition of death, and far from it).

Or you have been watching too many sci-fi movies.
Click to expand...

I was, and am not concerned with the definition of "dead" in my argument. You can substitute any event that can be done today that was looked at as impossible in prior years and it remains valid.

Your fallacious proposition that "something" can't be done nor could be done, was the heart of my argument. It just so happened that you made a claim and I called you on using a term you brought up, but which you failed to define. Now you wish to Equivocate on definitions while trying to avoid my my main argument.

In layman's terms, it means you lost the argument. Your conclusion that “Nor does anything else (raise the dead)” was illogical.

jaycwru · Mar 6, 2002

Originally posted by post-it:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jaycwru:
Either you are equating stopping of the heart with death (this is NOT the medical definition of death, and far from it).

Or you have been watching too many sci-fi movies.
Click to expand...

I was, and am not concerned with the definition of "dead" in my argument. You can substitute any event that can be done today that was looked at as impossible in prior years and it remains valid.

Your fallacious proposition that "something" can't be done nor could be done, was the heart of my argument. It just so happened that you made a claim and I called you on using a term you brought up, but which you failed to define. Now you wish to Equivocate on definitions while trying to avoid my my main argument.

In layman's terms, it means you lost the argument. Your conclusion that “Nor does anything else (raise the dead)” was illogical.[/QUOTE]Actually I think you are mistaken as to what was my argument. You stated something that is not true. Doctors do not "bring people back from the dead." I challenged you on that.

Or better yet, give your argument some meaning, and specify what you mean by dead.

Are you referring to physical death (as in the medical definition.)

Or are you referrring to a more abstract concept?

Either way doctors can't help you with either.

DanielS25 · Mar 6, 2002

For one the Branch Davidians had faith too what makes your beliefs any better than theirs and also why is the Bible inerrant. I've seen plenty of errors in it myself after having read it a few times. Why is it infallible, I don't know of any place in it that it makes that claim?
Most of the early church used different forms of the New Testament for centuries with different books being accepted. The Old Testament that they used was the Greek Septuagint which contains a few more books than that Baptist Bible you probably use so if the Bible is the infallible word of god why don't you use all of it?

post-it · Mar 7, 2002

Originally posted by jaycwru:
Actually I think you are mistaken as to what was my argument.
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Ahhhh, the phrase that is so common in debates on these boards. It is most often used phrase when one has lost an argument and seeks to equivocate or change the direction of the argument in an attempt to regain some ground.

I accept your phrase as your answer to my conclusions.

Thank you, I look forward to helping you understand more about why and how a God could exist in future debates here.

Clint Kritzer · Mar 7, 2002

I was also under the impression that the Free For All Forums were here for us non-believers to interact with you believers. Is this not true?
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Lyra - That is EXACTLY why this forum exists!

- Clint

judy m villeneuve · Mar 7, 2002

Thanks Clint!

tulpje · Mar 7, 2002

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