Amazon.com/pro-pedophile book

I don't know anything about this book other than what Jerry Falwell's organization thinks about it, but I just want to point out that if you get a Library of Congress number for your book and a deal with a distributor to have your book distributed for purchase, it "automatically" goes into Amazon's catalog. I have not gone to Amazon to investigate the entry (Amazon logs everything you look at and builds files to suggest items for purchase and I don't want a bunch a child erotica/gay erotica promoted to me every time I shop there), but my guess is that the higher-ups don't know about this book. I suspect the only ones who know are some shipping people who place the book on the warehouse shelf and the person who scanned the cover for the website. Making a case for a conspiracy against decency is probably good old-fashioned scandal-mongering.

My thoughts about the book:

1.) If it is a "scholarly" book with no picture of child erotica, I think that it should be available. I am opposed to censorship as a matter of principle -- even of things I strongly disagree with.

2.) If it is child erotica or has photos of children designed for erotic pleasure, it should be pulled out of Amazon's catalog -- at least.

 

Click on the link below to obtain the email address to Jeffrey Bezos, Amazon.com. You will find it at the end of the article.

http://www.afa.net/othersp/amazon.asp

 

This is how the "camel gets its nose under the tent door." Throw out some controversial book and bring some public debate to kind of "desensitize" us for what society will later on tolerate and then accept as normal. This is how homosexuality became acceptable today. There are even Baptists on this board who are tolerant of this unGodly lifestyle. Somewhere down the road we will accept 14 year old boys and girls having sexual relationships with 50 year old men because they "love each other".

 

Baptist Believer,
1) Perversion & Reprobate speech was never mean't to be protected by constitutional guarantees.
2) The Bible forbids Fornication, Adultery, Rape, Whoremongering, Effiminate men and the sin of the Sodomites.
3) God forbids even all thoughts of these sins when a person is being drawn away, so God must be for cemsorship.
4) Can you give me the name of one Baptist preacher in history who would agree with your position?
There are two types of Baptists in the world:
1) Baptists
2) Baaaaaaaaaaaaptists. BillyBaptists.

[ September 28, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Bartimaeus ]

 

Isn't is amazing that any book can be put out under the guize of it being "scholarly". Vile perverted Sodomite information (garbage) will never be "scholarly". If so, I have a great start for a book at the bottom of my outhouse.
Baruch was a scholar in the Bible and he would have never accepted this mess, Jeremiah would have preached the devil out of it.
Paul was a scholar and he said they were worthy of death.
Unrepentant hardened hearts with these sins will be in hell burning forever.

 

I'm all for free speech.

But the first amendment does NOT allow us to yell "fire" in a crowded room (when there isn't one), and then absolve ourselves of the responsibility when someone gets hurt because of it.

The same goes for this book. I'm all for free speech--unless that speech promotes the harming of those we are supposed to be protecting. And that's what I believe this book does, based on what's been posted here.

 

I don't know enough about the book to have an opinion of what should be done about it. I do know that the First Amendment was designed to protect very unpopular speech and publishing -- even to the point of discussing things that are against the laws of the land. Before anyone tries to claim that I support child porn, I do not. Child porn is illegal and certainly repugnant.

Yes. You write that like you don't think I know that...

I don't know what you mean by "drawn away". But I think you are making the mistake by equating my aversion to government censorship of speech and the press with my beliefs about what is right and wrong.

Baptist preachers are not popes.

I've never really taken a survey of Baptist preachers relating to freedom of speech and the press, but I assume that most Baptist preachers who support institutional separation of church and state would have a strong aversion to government censorship.

If you're suggesting something, I think you need to be bold and actually say it rather than making an attempt to be clever.

 

Would you be for or against government censorship of hate literature from a KKK press? Would you be for or against the government censorship of literature that demanded the immediate public execution of homosexuals?

I am certainly against child pornography and child erotica, but I am not *necessarily* against books that discuss the problem or the situation of pedophiles.

As I said before, I don't know enough about the book to determine if I am for or against it, but I do have a strong aversion to government censorship except in extreme and specific cases.

 

You seem to have picked up that word from my first post. I have no idea if the book is a serious discussion and analysis of pedophiles (that is, scholarly) or is a book that justifies child predators.

You use that word as if that might be my opinion of the book. If that is what you are doing, you are wrong.

 

I sent Amazon.com an e-mail regarding this book and below is their response:

"Dear [Customer],

Thank you for writing to Amazon.com with your concern.

Let me assure you, Amazon.com does not endorse "Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers." Simply because we sell a book does not mean we agree with the ideas it contains. If you will look at our site, you will see that we have posted a review of the book by one of our editors which is highly critical of the ideas expressed in Mr. Riegel's book.

Please know that, contrary to rumors that have been circulating around the Internet, this book is not a "how-to" manual for molesting children. The author simply expresses his point of view about what he feels are "misunderstood" relationships between men and boys.

We believe that people have the right to choose their own reading material. Our goal is to support freedom of expression and to provide customers with the broadest selection possible so they can find, discover, and buy any title they might be seeking. That selection includes some titles which most people, including employees of Amazon.com, may find distasteful or otherwise objectionable. However, Amazon.com believes it is censorship to make a book unavailable to our customers because we believe its message to be repugnant.

While we do not censor items from our web site, I wanted to reassure you that Amazon.com does not promote these kinds of titles.

We value all feedback from our customers, and I thank you again for taking the time to send us your comments about this issue."

Best regards,

Rakesh Ranjan
Amazon.com
Earth's Biggest Selection
http://www.amazon.com
=====================

We would appreciate your feedback on our customer service. Follow the link below if you would like to let us know how we are doing - your input is invaluable! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cs-experience-survey/-/qbur5814

There are several problems with this response. I e-mailed my reply to their response. I encourage each of you to do the same. I'll outline the problems that I see below.

First, they state, "Let me assure you, Amazon.com does not endorse 'Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers.' Simply because we sell a book does not mean we agree with the ideas it contains. If you will look at our site, you will see that we have posted a review of the book by one of our editors which is highly critical of the ideas expressed in Mr. Riegel's book."

The Problem (with their response):
By marketing and thereby making a profit from this book Amazon.com is endorsing the book. No one is saying that they agree with its content. I am glad that they have written a "highly critical review" of the book. However, that does not release them from their duty to be a responsible coporate citizen and to protect children.

Second, they state, "Please know that, contrary to rumors that have been circulating around the Internet, this book is not a "how-to" manual for molesting children. The author simply expresses his point of view about what he feels are 'misunderstood' relationships between men and boys."

The Problem (with their response):
In my e-mail I never said that the book was a "How-to manual for molesting children." What I said was that it attempts to normalize and moralize homosexual pedophilia. I stand by that statement.

Third, they state, "We believe that people have the right to choose their own reading material. Our goal is to support freedom of expression and to provide customers with the broadest selection possible so they can find, discover, and buy any title they might be seeking. That selection includes some titles which most people, including employees of Amazon.com, may find distasteful or otherwise objectionable. However, Amazon.com believes it is censorship to make a book unavailable to our customers because we believe its message to be repugnant."

The Problem (with their response):
Of course people have the right to choose their own reading material. I would not have it any other way. However, the expressed Amazon.com goal to "support freedom of expression and to provide customers with the broadest selection possible so they can find, discover, and buy any title they might be seeking" indicates that there is no subject material that they are or would be unwilling to purvey. If that is the case how long will it be before they are selling hard core pornography and even child pronography? It is not censorship for a book seller to choose not to market and sell a particular book. There are plenty of other retail outlets for such questionable and offensive material. If Amazon.com chooses not to sell a book it is not censorship. They are not stopping the publishing of the said book.

Finally, they state, "While we do not censor items from our web site, I wanted to reassure you that Amazon.com does not promote these kinds of titles."

The Problem (with their response):
As I said above it is not censorship for a book seller to choose not to stock, market, and profit from a particular book. They do not have the power to "censor" a book. They have no control over the content of books or the production of them. That power rests with the publishers. By choosing not to sell this particular book Amazon.com would be exercising good, responsible coporate citizenship and helping to protect children. Finally, Amazon.com by its choice to market and sell this book is promoting this kind of title by default. If they don't promote such titles then they would not sell them.

Double Speak, you gota love it!

[ September 29, 2002, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Child pornography is illegal in the United States so Amazon could not sell it and have a business presence in the United States without being vulnerable to prosecution. Other pornography is not handled through traditional bookselling channels and distributors such as Ingram and Baker & Taylor. Essentially you are comparing apples and oranges here... They decline to sell pornography through their video and film section, but the standard for handling traditional reading materials seems to be much more open. They handle books that have distribution through mainstream distributors like Ingram and Baker & Taylor and books that are directly marketed through small presses to the company. Essentially, if you have a Library of Congress number, an ISBN number and a distribution deal, your book is sold through Amazon. (I know a little about this since I have worked with Amazon to sell some book titles for a small press.)

Does Amazon "promote" Communism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0451527100/qid=1033303388/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-4252345-6139908?v=glance&n=507846

Or does Amazon "promote" Capitalism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679424733/qid=1033303701/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/104-4252345-6139908

Does Amazon "promote" Nazism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395951054/qid=1033303790/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4252345-6139908?v=glance

Or does Amazon "promote" Judaism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764552996/ref=bfl_books//104-4252345-6139908?v=glance&n=22

Does Amazon "promote" Satanism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380015390/qid=1033303485/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4252345-6139908?v=glance

Or does Amazon "promote" Christianity?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310925886/qid=1033304223/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/104-8815852-7426318?v=glance

Making a title available to the public is not the same thing as "promoting" it.

 

Child pornography is illegal in the United States so Amazon could not sell it and have a business presence in the United States without being vulnerable to prosecution. Other pornography is not handled through traditional bookselling channels and distributors such as Ingram and Baker & Taylor. Essentially you are comparing apples and oranges here... They decline to sell pornography through their video and film section, but the standard for handling traditional reading materials seems to be much more open. They handle books that have distribution through mainstream distributors like Ingram and Baker & Taylor and books that are directly marketed through small presses to the company. Essentially, if you have a Library of Congress number, an ISBN number and a distribution deal, your book is sold through Amazon. (I know a little about this since I have worked with Amazon to sell some book titles for a small press.)

Does Amazon "promote" Communism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0 451527100/qid=1033303388/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-4252345-6139908?v=glance&n=507846

Or does Amazon "promote" Capitalism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679424733/qid=1033303701/sr=2-2/ ref=sr_2_2/104-4252345-6139908

Does Amazon "promote" Nazism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395951054 /qid=1033303790/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4252345-6139908?v=glance

Or does Amazon "promote" Judaism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764552996/ref=bfl_book s//104-4252345-6139908?v=glance&n=22

Does Amazon "promote" Satanism?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0380015390 /qid=1033303485/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4252345-6139908?v=glance

Or does Amazon "promote" Christianity?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/03109258 86/qid=1033304223/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/104-8815852-7426318?v=glance

Making a title available to the public is not the same thing as "promoting" it.</font>[/QUOTE]Hello Baptist Believer,

My choice of extreme examples (hard core pornography/child pornography) may not be the best choice to get my point across; however, you can not argue that I raise a valid point. The Amazon.com "goal," as it is stated in the e-mail quoted above, expresses that there is basically no subject matter that they are or will be unwilling to purvey to the public. Also, above you have pulled a portion of what I said out of a paragraph and quoted it out of its full context. I was making the point that Amazon.com could rightfully chose not to purvey a particular book and not be open to the charge of "censorship."

In fact, you prove my point. If they can chose not to sell pornography through their video and film resource section they can make the same choice not to sell questionalbe or offensive books in their traditional reading material/book section and not be open to the charge of censorship.

Regarding your Amazon.com links and questions above, clearly they sell those books. I have read Marx, Smith, the Bible, and studied Judaism in-depth in my course work here at Southeastern. Like you have argued above, there is no problem with studying these subjects to learn about them and how to interact with them in order to share the Gospel with those who hold such beliefs (the same goes for Nazism and Satanism). However, no one needs to read a book that attempts to normalize homosexual pedophilia to "understand" it. We understand from the Bible that it is a sin. We understand that some people have such a sinful desire and act to fulfill that desire. The Bible teaches that there is nothing that is acceptable about homosexual pedophilia and that we, as Christians, are to confront those involved in this sin (all sins) with the truth of the Gospel so that they may repent and be saved.

Are the social and economic principles of Marx sin? I don't think so. However, the premises that they are built upon are wrong and his belief system will never work due to the sinful greedy nature of man. Is Smith's capitalism sin? I don't think so. Is a book that helps one understand the religious beliefs of Judaism sinful? I don't think so. In fact, in the hands of a Christian that book may well be used to help present the truth of the New Testament Gospel to a Jew.

But, never mind all this. These are mere distractions from the point of our discussion. The real underlying concern and question here is:
Is homosexual pedophilia a sin and if it is should we, as Christians, sit silently by and watch as someone promotes a book that attempts to normalize and moralize the sin? The answer to the first part of that compound question is a resounding YES, and to the second part is a resounding NO.

So, to answer your repeated question about those various titles/links, I would say yes Amazon.com promotes those titles by purveying them to the public. Do the ideas behind each of those titles contradict one another? Yes. Is that a problem? No.

In your final statement you said, "Making a title available to the public is not the same thing as 'promoting' it." I respectfully disagree. It all depends on which definition of "promote" that you are using. I am saying that "promoting" or "promotion" of a book (in this case) means to market it to the public, to place it in the public eye, and to make it availabe for consumption by the public. Like a person who promotes a sports/entertainment event. Does such a person necessarily have to believe in or even like the promoted event? No; nevertheless, they promote the event and profit from the box office receipts. This is exactly what Amazon.com is doing by advertising and selling this book on its website.

[ September 30, 2002, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

So are we really expecting a moral choice from a secular company? I hope not, that is not a realistic expectation. When focused on making money, as long as it is legal, so be it. The author does have a right to express his point of view and I would not censor him. Do you think that we are creating "wanted" publicity on the part of the author? Just something to think about.
If we want people to make moral choices, it begins with seeing them accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. We shouldn't be surprised when unchristians act unchristians!

 

Hello Go2,

I'm not expecting a moral choice from a secular company. I am demanding, as a concerned Christian parent, that they act responsibly to ensure the protection of children from homosexual pedophiles.

Again, it is not censorship for anyone to refuse to sell this particular book. No one is denying the author his right to express and even publish his views. I take issue with the manner in which you use the term "censor," just as I do with Baptist Believer and the Amazon.com official who used the term as well. Censorship controls the content and production of specific materials. Therefore, a book seller that refuses to sell a particular book, for any reason, does not engage in censorship. We need to stop buying into the politically correct misuse of the term "censorship." The power to censor someone or something rests solely with the government and the publishers (in this case).

I agree with you regarding the fact that we must lead people to Christ in order to see effective moral change in their lives and actions. However, when a moral issue threatens the saftey of our children would you have us sit quietly by and let it proceed without confronting it? That very attitude is one of the factors that led to Roe v. Wade.

By talking about this issue are we giving "wanted" publicity to the book? Perhaps, but I would argue that generally only active homosexual pedophiles who want to have their actions justified, and/or those who have such hidden desires and want to have their feelings affirmed will purchase that book. However, to follow your suggested line of reasoning a step further, should we not talk with our youth groups (with some kids that are not saved)about maintaining sexual purity until marriage for fear that we will peak their sexual curiosity?

I am not surprised when non-Christians act like non-Christians. However, should we sit by and silently watch as they run headlong and carry our society right into hell? I don't think so.

 

Yes I can.

They make published books available for purchase without screening them for the quality or correctness of their content. They give the consumers the responsibility to make the final decision.

I am sorry if I took your words out of the intended context... I try to cut portions of the messages I quote in order to cut down on load for the BaptistBoard server.

But there's a difference... Books contain ideas and pornography is photography of people engaged in sexual acts. Censorship is primarily the suppression of ideas and opinions by control of the press, speech or distribution. From what I have read, Amazon has taken the position of trying to supply their customers with every book available -- including books from small presses that would never see the light of day if they had to go through the traditional publishing houses. As a result, sometimes repugnant material becomes available to the general public.

That is certainly your opinion (and mine), but not everyone would agree.

Again, I agree with you... but we should not suppress these ideas, but demonstrate their faults in the public marketplace of ideas.

I agree, except for the place where you say that Amazon is "promoting" the title. If anything, the noise that Christians are making is giving the book much more publicity and acceptance than it would have received if it had been ignored.

That's the marketplace of ideas in action...

The book is hardly "marketed" in the traditional sense. It is available, but there is no promotion by Amazon except for a review that says that the book is worthless -- that doesn't sound like they are eager to sell this book!

It is hardly in the public eye unless you already know the title. Christians have placed the book squarely in the public eye with their calls for a boycott. (It's the same tactic that worked so well for promoting the movie, "The Last Temptation of Christ".)

They do make it available... Amazon makes just about every English language book that is in print available.

Promoters of sporting events advertise to fill the seats. This is different -- we are talking about a book being made available for purchase through a website that condemns the book it is selling and has absolutely no pitching of the books to customers. The ideas are contemptible, but not illegal. If someone follows through with the actions that may be promoted by the book, they should be arrested, prosecuted and be incarcerated where they can enjoy the company of their fellow prisoners.

Nope... Not "exactly". They are not promoting the book and certainly not advertising it. Christians are doing most of the advertising by their call for Amazon to censor (suppress) the book by restricting its availability.

 

NOTE: Not all pedophiles are homosexual... many of them are heterosexual.

Frankly, I don't think pedophiles need a book to get the idea to molest children. The book being available does not directly *cause* pedophiles to attack children. The book has been taking a beating in the marketplace of ideas but the calls for censorship is actually creating more interest for the book.

People and companies have the right to make decisions on what they will sell. Amazon has chosen of policy of not discriminating based on ideas and content. If they are going to be true to their policy, it would be "censorship" for them to make exceptions for unpopular viewpoints.

But you *do* want to deny him the opportunity to disseminate his ideas through one of his only retail outlets.

Censorship is also the prohibition of the distribution of ideas.

"Politically correct" huh? That's nice rhetoric, but my views are motivated by the First Amendment and the opinion that the truth of Christ can stand up to any lie and defeat it.

If someone is denied the opportunity to promote their ideas in a forum that has been designated as open to all, then they have been censored. Amazon has made its book stock list open to all English language books that have a Library of Congress number, an ISBN number and a bar code.

No one is telling anyone to be quiet. Christians need to be vocal and confront the evil ideas that are likely present in this book. Instead of trying to cover it up, Christians need to shine the light of truth upon it.

True. Therefore your call for Amazon to pull the book will likely have no effect on those who are abusing children.

Talking with your youth group about sexuality is a very different thing than trying to get a book off the market. With the youth group you are talking to them about what they feel (healthy feelings by the way) and telling them how to respond Christianly. With Amazon, you are trying to get repugnant ideas suppressed so that they are not available in the marketplace of ideas. There is no suppression of ideas with the youth group. Instead of ignoring the subject and hoping for the best, you are confronting the issue head on and presenting a positive method of sexual expression. Your example actually cuts against your argument.

 

To say that only the government can censor is not historically correct. During the Dark Ages it was the state church that did most of the censoring. Censorship takes on many forms, from many different sources.

 

Hello Baptist Believer,

Yes, you can argue that the point that I raised is not valid. Of course, you would be wrong.

Seriously now, you have raised some points that I have not thought through to their logical conclusions. I'll consider what you have said above and if some or all of it makes sense in the end I'll be willing to reconsider my stance.

I still disagree with you regarding whether or not we can say Amazon is promoting this book. You said something earlier that helps to make my point. You said, "I have not gone to Amazon to investigate the entry (Amazon logs everything you look at and builds files to suggest items for purchase and I don't want a bunch a child erotica/gay erotica promoted to me every time I shop there)..." You see, they are promoting the book along with other similar or related materials just like the person who promotes a sports/entertainment event. The goal is to sell something, be it a book or a ticket to an event, and profit from that sale. In addition to the tracking method that you reference above they also keep statistics on which titles customers purchase and recommend similar titles to you as you browse. You know, when you click on a title and the little message appears that says something like, "Customers who purchased this book also purchased xxx; yyy; and zzz." That is marketing. That is promotion in the most classic sense.

Also on the censorship debate, Amazon is not the only book seller in the U.S. or the world. Calling for them to remove this book from their website may well limit its distribution; however, it does not make the book completely unavailable. That is why I can say that it is not censorship for Amazon to refuse to advertise and sell any book for any reason. They are not determining the content or the production of a specific book, nor are they making its distribution impossible. There are plenty of other retail outlets for the distribution of the book.

That is what I meant when I referred to the "politically correct" use of the term censor. Some people will throw that term out in an attempt to make the freedom loving U.S. public believe that someone's rights are somehow being violated. Nothing could be further from the truth. The author is free to express his views, seek out a publisher, produce his work, and distribute it through various book sellers. Now if one of those book sellers, say the largest one, chooses (even if due to pressure from an opposing group) not to stock that particular book is that book seller censoring the author or the book? In no way because other retail outlets remain for its distribution. In fact, the author is even free to develop his own website and sell his book through it, or to set up a shop somewhere and sell his book there, or use one of any number of ways of marketing and distributing it. I would never deny anyone these freedoms. However, these rights and freedoms cannot, must not, be used to force the Constitution to mean that a private book seller must stock, market, and sell the particular book in question (or any book for that matter).

Who says that Amazon is responsible to sell every book ever published? That may well be their stated goal, but does that make it right for them to sell potentially dangerous or hurtful materials? I don't think so. Let me explain why I say "potentially dangerous or hurtful material." This particular book has the power to be the final factor that causes someone to act upon his or her previously surpressed desires because (according to its reviews) it affirms homosexual pedophilia (and pedophilia in general) as normal, acceptable, possibly beneficial, and something that simply needs to be understood. This places children at risk.

Now as a concerned parent, customer, and Christain am I obligated to speak out against Amazon's choice to market and sell this book? Yes. Are they obligated to do as I say or wish? No. Am I obligated to continue to shop at Amazon if I find fault with their goals and policies? No. However, for anyone to attempt to act as if Amazon is not promoting the book, or as if they would be "censoring" the work by chosing not to sell it is nonsense. The first thing (promoting) they are clearly doing, and the second (censoring) is impossible for them to do.

In your other reply above you said, "NOTE: Not all pedophiles are homosexual... many of them are heterosexual." That goes without saying. However, the book in question was written by a man and addresses "Loved Boys and Boylovers." It does not say "loved children and childlovers," nor does the title mention girls. I think that I just heard the clue phone ring.

[ October 01, 2002, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: BibleboyII ]

 

Hello go2chruch,

The key term that defeats your argument here is "state church." That "church" had the power to censor because it was backed by the sword of the government and that government held its power because it was backed by the spiritual authority of the church. You know, the Divine Right of Kings thing. Sorry, but I still maintain what I said before about who has the power to censor.