America is Christian Nation, part 2

This as to continue in following up on a few things.

Av1611jim, I do not entirely disagree with your above statements though some is not quite coherent. There are a couple of things which I wish to address with you. As the other thread closed before I was able to do so. In addition I had asked numerous questions of you which none were answered. I have just a few I would like you to address.

A) You have stated in regards to me, for everyone to see, that I advocate rebellion is “okey-dokey” with God. You are misrepresenting me to the point of playing a false witness or gossip! I have never said or implied rebellion is “okey-dokey” with God!!

In fact, what I said in regards to rebellion and civil disobedience is;

Please show where I have ever said rebellion or civil disobedience is okey-dokey with God. Otherwise a proper correction is due and would be appreciated.


B) What I did was take issue with your judging others’ and saying God hates and rejects “ALL” rebellion. That “ALL” rebellion is sinful in God’s eyes and not something He would ever sanction. The fact is your statement is absolutely refuted in the Bible, which I and others’ pointed out. You simply chose to accept Marcia’s premise and/or to say it was not “germane” to the issue. Whether it was applicable to the subject or not is irrelevant! I strongly disagree with that notion however but will address Marcia on it.

Again, yes disobedience or rebellion is wrong! But to say “all” rebellion or civil disobedience is always wrong, is again un-biblical! I believe, as Bible clearly shows this.


Quotes by av1611jim:

However this is what the Holy Bible says!

God most definitely “approved” and “sanctioned” Jeroboam’s rebellion against King Solomon. His holy word says he actually “exalted” Jeroboam to become ruler! Which again came about through “rebellion” as the Bible specifically states.

The word of God rejects your statement that He would never sanction a rebellion or approve of such! As He most certainly has at times and as specifically stated in 1 Kings 11:26. Do you accept this or not?

Whether this is relevant to the American Revolution does not matter. As I stated earlier, “Whether God saw the rebellion(revolution) as sinful, justifiable, or initiated it, lies solely with Him”. This is a fact!

What you have done is simply judge and entire nation and people. I am unsure what you mean by “unbelievers” as above but assume this is such again. Jesus said in Matt. 7: 1-2

You stated God rejects “all forms” of rebellion.

There was a time in Rome in which Christianity was outlawed and Christians killed. It was declared that Caesar was to be worshiped as god. Yet the disciples and other followers continued to faithfully teach the Lords word. Do you believe they were sinning by doing such?

take care.

In Christ. Ralph

 

Hello Marcia.

As noted the thread closed before I could address a few things by you and especially av1611jim. I wanted the opportunity to respond to a few comments.


You missed the entire thrust I took with av1611jim, but actually made my point in doing so! He said God “hates rebellion, in any form...” and that God “never approves” or has ever “sanctioned” such.

The Holy Bible absolutely refutes this notion as pointed out in

God made Jeroboam ruler through rebellion against King Solomon! This as the Holy Bible specifically states. You replied in saying “But Ralph, this was all initiated by God, not man!”

EXACTLY Marcia!

Your statement here is obscure and not bound. How do you know God did not initiate the American Revolution? Or set things into motion by which a revolution would occur? After all we did go against the largest military power in the world and won. Through many wondrous and unlikely events and with a rag-tag army! This is something Washington and others often referred to when seeing God’s hand in establishing America.

God rose up against Solomon and others because he had turned from the Lords ways. But to clarify, this included many sins as even seen today! It was not just limited to worship of false gods. The Lord sits in judgment and states “He who rules over men must be just, Ruling in the fear of God”. Sam 23:3

But what of nations or Kings who do not rule justly or in fear of God? Such as the case with the King of England or Hitler, Caesar, Stalin etc. You’ll note they all lost power and great changes took place within each of those nations! So your conclusion that it is not relevant to today is wrong.

If the Lord overthrew and punished evil empires and ungodly rulers in the Bible, then He surely could do so even today. Yes I agree with y’all in that America will and is being judged. This is all the more reason we should be vigilant in electing God fearing and loving men. That we should insist upon our nation in continuing to recognize the Lord and His will. Otherwise abortion, gay marriage, polygamy, euthanasia will become even more rampant and the norm.

But Again. Whether God saw the American Revolution as sinful, sanctioned it, or initiated it lies solely with Him. I am not advocating rebelling against anyone or anything today. But I definitely am not going to stand in judgment of an entire nation and Founders who found themselves involved with it. Such as av1611jim did.

Lastly, All passages within the Bible are relevant toward today! You and I participated in a debate with some over abortion and stem cell research. God bless you for your testimony in that thread! Yet, what did we base our argument on as neither is specifically mentioned in the Bible? We based it on our understanding of God's will. As we learn from all passages within the Bible and/or as He has spoken to our heart.



Anyhow take care. :wavey: Ralph

 

Hello Marcia,


But again you made my point! God made Jeroboam ruler through rebellion against a sinful King, Solomon! As the Holy Bible most specifically states! You replied in saying

This is my point Marcia! Av1611jim has not, or may never; acknowledge God has sanctioned a rebellion!

I have no problem debating whether the Founders sinned in the Revolution. But at worst that is what it would have been, a sin! At best it was something God sanctioned, therefore not a sin! The Bible overwhelmingly states, New and Old, that rebellion is wrong! However, the Bible also clearly shows the Lord has at times sanctioned rebellion, against evil or ungodly Rulers. This is something av1611jim will not acknowledge because it destroys his argument. But the word of God stands!



(Some of the following is repetitive but necessary for context)



This has always been a strong debate among Christians. Thus I am going to start a thread under the “Theology” forum as interesting as it is. You spoke of the New Testament versus the Old Testament, but God remains the same! What He wills shall be done!


As noted, it is something which the Founders and Clergy also strongly debated before the Revolution. They came to justify acting against a tyrannical King and Parliament. Who held themselves in an idolatrous manner, as it was seen, by claiming to be sovereign “in all cases whatsoever”. They were also justified in defending themselves, their families, and their property. Which surely Christians have the right to do; as shown with Jesus telling the Apostles to get prepared in spreading His message, Luke 22:36.

As noted, America had already become very independent of England, having over time established its own laws, customs, and leaders. The English tried re-establishing their rule through tyrannical acts on the people and leadership. By a new King who was afflicted with a maddening disease. Whose authority was later stripped, by the English themselves, due to his corruption and madness!


Thus, 1 Cor. 7:21 was also something considered,

The Apostles acted defiantly against the Rulers in spreading the Lords word. Yet if one holds to the notion that “all forms” of rebellion are sinful; then they are saying the Apostles sinned in spreading the word of God. Such as the scripture which av1611jim has put forth. Yet he has refused to answer such questions.

Note Acts 5, when the Apostles were put in jail and on trial again for rebellious acts. In responding to the charges they say 29 “We ought to obey God rather than men.” But do especially note the counsel given by Gamaliel’s to the leaders. When he describes rebellion and former rebellions,

Marcia this is the word of God. As also found in the New Testament!



The fact is God deplores rebellion. However, whether God sanctioned the American Revolution, thus not sinful; or created good out of sin, lies solely with Him! But to say God has never or would never sanction rebellion, is not Biblical. As He has done such against ungodly and evil leaders.

How many Christians today would stand by while their families were murdered, enslaved, children killed, property seized, women abused, God spat upon, His word rejected etc. etc; and hold to the notion God rejects "all" rebellion? Or uphold submiting ourselves unquestionably and fully to such evil? To stand at times against such evil as Hitler, Stalin and as Niteshift noted is to stand for God. I most definetly believe God plays a hand in such! After all Caesar rules no more!

But to condemn, not just judge, an entire people as av1611jim did is wrong. It goes against what Jesus teaches us.


In Christ, Ralph

Take care.:wavey:

 

Excellent point rbell! This is something I also noted earlier, to those who say we sinned against the English King. Well what of the Rulers before the King of England? Were we not ultimately bound to their authority as they were before the King!? Anyhow, they just stick with we sinned against the tyrannical and crazy King of England. Though we are across the world in another land and had established our own laws, customs and leaders. Which they usurped thus causing the Revolution.

take care, Ralph:godisgood:

 

Av1611jim, I appreciate the verses you have offered and with John 7:24.

However that verse speaks of a good deed which was done on the Sabbath. This is the day we are to observe in rest and respect for God. Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and there were those who got mad because of such. Jesus said “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment”. He is saying here, to look for the greater good.

This verse actually serves for the Founders and Nation. Though they may have sinned with the Revolution a much greater good came from it. This is not even arguable. America has historically been a God loving and fearing nation, even before. It was the whole purpose of the pilgrims and others coming here.

They created a system by which we could worship the Lord freely as we enjoy today! According to our own conscience and without persecution; from a corrupt, tyrannical, and arguably idolatrous King and Church of England. They called upon the Lord to help them in this drastic measure fully understanding the possible consequences. They exalted the Lord in founding of the Nation, whether it was initiated through sin or not, and God surely did so. There is literally a mountain of official and personal, documents, speeches, legislative actions, etc showing this. It served for great changes worldwide in this regards.



I am unfamiliar with the site but gives a good overview. http://mdccc.org/PAGES/Articles/American Christian Heritage Part Two - The Revolution and Beyond.htm
Or you can go directly to the Library of Congress.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html



You asked if I am willing to live to the standard of Matt. 7, in judging not of others. Yes I do. I may disagree strongly with others but I never resort to saying they are not Christian! You will not find any such post from me in that regards. Nor will you find where I stand in accusation of others sins. If I do so I always note my own first. You know, “remove the log” thing before helping your brother!


I have no problem debating whether the Founders possibly sinned in the Revolution. But at worst that is what it would have been, a sin! At best it was something God sanctioned, therefore not a sin! The Bible overwhelmingly states, New and Old, that rebellion is wrong! However, the Bible also clearly shows the Lord has at times sanctioned rebellion, against evil or ungodly Rulers.



No, the last leg is when scripture is ignored or not acknowledged. You said God has never sanctioned a rebellion or would exalt such. The Bible clearly shows He has.

Again, Jeroboam “rebelled” against his King, Solomon! Is this a lie or the truth?
God exalted and sanctioned this rebellion! Is this a lie or the truth?



Av1611jim, I strongly disagree but do respect your position. So please do not take it personal as I mean not for it to be as such. But the word of God stands! I took issue with you’re A) condemning an entire people, without knowing or having been in their shoes, not that such matters, B) ignoring or diminishing 1 Kings, then C) painting a false picture of myself, though this was not such a deal with me.

Though your post was flawed I found it very interesting. So I would like to start a post “rebellion” under the Theology thread. Tomorrow night.

Anyhow, take care.:wavey: Ralph

 

Amen LadyEagle.

Excellent posts also Eric B. and Niteshift.


Hope all is going well with EVERYONE!

take care, Ralph:wavey: