amillennialism today

[Pilgrimer]

P. S. to Treed,
One last word and I promise I'll hush! lol For a while anyway.

What is so absolutely awe-inspiring and faith building for me is to realize how God, in his unfathomable wisdom, fulfilled so exactly absolutely every jot and tittle of the Law, both in terms of the blessedness He promised to those who kept faithful covenant with Him, but also in terms of the cursedness of those who broke covenant with him and refused to hear his Word. But the crux of it all is this . . . that this is true, and that it all happened in the lifetime of those who saw Jesus Christ in the flesh, proves that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

But let me add, I have not studied all these things in order to prove that Jesus is the Christ, my proof rests on other grounds; but rather, I have studied all these things in order to look back in time so that I might see Jesus' footprints in the sand.

Happy New Year everyone! May peace, joy, and singing crown every day of the New Year! Till the Lord come.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Ed Edwards]

Treed -- Happy New Year 2008!

Pilgrimer -- Happy New Year 2008!

Pilgrimer:
You have explained the teachings of
a-millennialism (AKA: a-mill) quite well.
I've already debunked that teaching and
see no reason to futher do so here. (There are other places
where I can promote my pre-tribulation rapture,
pre-millinnial Second Coming, futurism . There aught
to be a safe place where one can teach
a-mill doctrine. I note there are two main
branches of a-mill:

a-millennialism = the Millennial Messanic
Kingdom of Jesus is a real & literal truth
that is to be spiritually discerned

a-mill, post-trib-only = the a-mill teaching
that Jesus will physcially return at the
end of the tribulation* to gather His saints
and whip the Antichrist

(* note: a-mills are further split about
the meaning of the 'tribulation')

a-mill, a-trib = the tribulation period
is a real & literal truth that is to be
spiritually discerned

As usual, I'm sumarizing somebody else's
doctrine -- so feel free to correct me if I err.
(And I do err, I remember a time back
the the last Millinnia (1001-2000) about
1998 ... )

 

[landmarker33]

Treed -- Happy New Year 2008!

Pilgrimer -- Happy New Year 2008!

Pilgrimer:
You have explained the teachings of
a-millennialism (AKA: a-mill) quite well.
I've already debunked that teaching and
see no reason to futher do so here. (There are other places
where I can promote my pre-tribulation rapture,
pre-millinnial Second Coming, futurism . There aught
to be a safe place where one can teach
a-mill doctrine. I note there are two main
branches of a-mill:

a-millennialism = the Millennial Messanic
Kingdom of Jesus is a real & literal truth
that is to be spiritually discerned

a-mill, post-trib-only = the a-mill teaching
that Jesus will physcially return at the
end of the tribulation* to gather His saints
and whip the Antichrist

(* note: a-mills are further split about
the meaning of the 'tribulation')

a-mill, a-trib = the tribulation period
is a real & literal truth that is to be
spiritually discerned

As usual, I'm sumarizing somebody else's
doctrine -- so feel free to correct me if I err.
(And I do err, I remember a time back
the the last Millinnia (1001-2000) about
1998 ... )

Ed, quick question for you...
If the church is raptured before the tribulation will there be anyone saved during that period?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello Ed,
>There are other places where I can promote my pre-tribulation rapture,
pre-millinnial Second Coming, futurism . There aught to be a safe place where one can teach a-mill doctrine.

I'm not so much concerned with promoting a-mill doctrine, or any other eschatological view for that matter. I'm far more concerned with promoting the Gospel in all these prophecies and interpretations we all talk so much about . . . and let the eschatology chips fall where they may. After all, in the end, it is only in so far as I understand what the Good New is . . . that I can walk in it.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Ed Edwards]

//If the church is raptured before the tribulation
will there be anyone saved during that period?//

probably not, if you speak of gentiles;
certainly yes, if you speak of Jews

The Tribulation Period is God's plan to save
a maximum number of Jews (some 18 million would
be saved today, if the pretribulation rapture were to
happen today).

I have spoken with three Messanic Jews who think
only their Jewish Bretheren would be saved in the
Tribualtion Period. They say that when the last gentile
who is going to be saved, gets saved - then the
Lord will rapture/resurrect all Christians and Messanic Jews
to that time. Some 144,000 of the Messanic Jews will be picked
for special service to Jesus during the Tribulation Period
(and maybe even the Millennial Messanaic Kingdom that follows.)

 

[landmarker33]

//If the church is raptured before the tribulation
will there be anyone saved during that period?//

probably not, if you speak of gentiles;
certainly yes, if you speak of Jews

The Tribulation Period is God's plan to save
a maximum number of Jews (some 18 million would
be saved today, if the pretribulation rapture were to
happen today).

I have spoken with three Messanic Jews who think
only their Jewish Bretheren would be saved in the
Tribualtion Period. They say that when the last gentile
who is going to be saved, gets saved - then the
Lord will rapture/resurrect all Christians and Messanic Jews
to that time. Some 144,000 of the Messanic Jews will be picked
for special service to Jesus during the Tribulation Period
(and maybe even the Millennial Messanaic Kingdom that follows.)

Thanks Ed!

Who is the elect? I always thought it was the those saved in the church?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thanks Ed!

Who is the elect? I always thought it was the those saved in the church?

You are correct.
However, that group is NOT all of the elect.

The KJV1769 Edition Old Testament (O.T.) uses 'elect'
in four places. All 4 seem to relate to God's chosen people:
the Israeli (now Jews mostly)).

Isa 2:1 (about Jesus)
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 45:2
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isa 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

God's chosen Israeli are God's elect.

God's chosen Israel will be saved:

Rom 11:25-26 ;(Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this secret
(least ye should bee arrogant in your selues)
that partly obstinacie is come to Israel,
vntill the fulnesse of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shalbe saued, as it is written,
The deliuerer shall come out of Sion,
and shall turne away the vngodlinesse from Iacob.


There are two churches:
1. Israel
2. the mostly gentiles of the 'Gentile Age'
(also known as: Time of the Gentiles, Church age, etc)

There are two groups of elect:
1. Israel
2. The Church Age crowd (mostly gentiles, includes
however the Messanic Jews. 144,000 of these Messanic
Jews resurrected or raptured at the beginning of the
Tribulation Period are marked for protection and
rewarded at the Bema Seat /AKA: Judgement Seat
of Christ/ with service for Messiah Jesus in the Tribulation
period (AKA: Day of the Lord) and the Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom (AKA: Day of the Lord).

The whole Tribulation Period is about saving Jews,
not about letting Antichrist show how wonderful the
Lord is by Giving the Lord lots of Martyrs.

 

[landmarker33]

You are correct.
However, that group is NOT all of the elect.

The KJV1769 Edition Old Testament (O.T.) uses 'elect'
in four places. All 4 seem to relate to God's chosen people:
the Israeli (now Jews mostly)).

Isa 2:1 (about Jesus)
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 45:2
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isa 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

God's chosen Israeli are God's elect.

God's chosen Israel will be saved:

Rom 11:25-26 ;(Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this secret
(least ye should bee arrogant in your selues)
that partly obstinacie is come to Israel,
vntill the fulnesse of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shalbe saued, as it is written,
The deliuerer shall come out of Sion,
and shall turne away the vngodlinesse from Iacob.


There are two churches:
1. Israel
2. the mostly gentiles of the 'Gentile Age'
(also known as: Time of the Gentiles, Church age, etc)

There are two groups of elect:
1. Israel
2. The Church Age crowd (mostly gentiles, includes
however the Messanic Jews. 144,000 of these Messanic
Jews resurrected or raptured at the beginning of the
Tribulation Period are marked for protection and
rewarded at the Bema Seat /AKA: Judgement Seat
of Christ/ with service for Messiah Jesus in the Tribulation
period (AKA: Day of the Lord) and the Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom (AKA: Day of the Lord).

The whole Tribulation Period is about saving Jews,
not about letting Antichrist show how wonderful the
Lord is by Giving the Lord lots of Martyrs.

Thanks Ed! The reason I ask is because, if the Lord's church is raptured... who will be here to witness for Jesus? Considering the church has been given the "keys" to the kingdom, (Mt. 16:19) along with the power to do so by the Holy Spirit? (Acts 1:8)

Mt 24:14.. And this gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto ALL "NATIONS;" AND THEN THE END SHALL COME."

1.) Who will preach this gospel? Who are His witnesses? Who is the nations? Why must it be preached to all nations... will some of the nations be saved?

2.) V.14) Is this"end" the same end in Mt. 28:20? "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the "END" of the world."

Rms 10:14:17...
1. How shall they call upo the Lord whom they have no believed?
2. How shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
3. How shall hear with out a preacher?
4. How shall they preach unless sent?

V.17) "So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

Just some thoughts...
Lord bless!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mat 24:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, his disciples
came vnto him apart, saying, Tell vs when
these things shall be, and what signe shalbe
of thy comming, and of the ende of the world.

'World' here would be better in the 21st century
as 'age' (the Greek word is 'aeon' from which we
get 'eon' and it means 'age' here.

AGE = long period of time

Mat 24:14 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And this Gospel of the kingdome shalbe
preached through the whole world for a witnes
vnto all nations, and then shall the end come.

//2.) V.14) Is this"end" the same end in Mt. 28:20? "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the "END" of the world."//

Yes, same End (of the Age).
I believe that Matthew 24:4-14 answers the
question the Disciples asked about the
end of the age (world system as we know it)
/details of my belief upon request/

I even have a writing about the continuing sign
that the current age (The Gentile Age, the Church Age,
the Time of the Gentiles, etc):

------------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB = Christian Standard
Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.

Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

AD 061 - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. AD 0140 - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

AD 0197 - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. AD 0205 - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. AD 0310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
"The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

AD 0378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of Christ".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

This prophecy concerns the Full Church Age!
The word of Jesus has been spreading
to the rest of world and will continue to
do so as long as the Lord tarries.
-----------------------------------

Matthew 24:4-14 shows that the Church Age continues.
When these signs cease, the world will be headed into
the inter-age time: The Tribulation Period.


This believe of mine renders your other question simple:

//1.) Who will preach this gospel? Who are His witnesses? Who is the nations? Why must it be preached to all nations... will some of the nations be saved?//

We will, untill we depart.

'The nations' are China, India, Russia, USofA, Brazil,
Japan, etc. -- to name a few highly populated countries.


In the Tribulation Period it is only important that the Jewes
receive the gospel. There will be 144,000 set aside for
helping Jesus. There will be the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

As for Romans 10:14-17 - that also is in the
current Church Age. Also, now we have lots of preaching tapes
that will be left behind, when we Christians are gone.

 

[landmarker33]

Mat 24:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, his disciples
came vnto him apart, saying, Tell vs when
these things shall be, and what signe shalbe
of thy comming, and of the ende of the world.

'World' here would be better in the 21st century
as 'age' (the Greek word is 'aeon' from which we
get 'eon' and it means 'age' here.

AGE = long period of time

Mat 24:14 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And this Gospel of the kingdome shalbe
preached through the whole world for a witnes
vnto all nations, and then shall the end come.

//2.) V.14) Is this"end" the same end in Mt. 28:20? "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the "END" of the world."//

Yes, same End (of the Age).
I believe that Matthew 24:4-14 answers the
question the Disciples asked about the
end of the age (world system as we know it)
/details of my belief upon request/

I even have a writing about the continuing sign
that the current age (The Gentile Age, the Church Age,
the Time of the Gentiles, etc):

------------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB = Christian Standard
Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.

Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

AD 061 - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. AD 0140 - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

AD 0197 - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. AD 0205 - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. AD 0310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
"The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

AD 0378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of Christ".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

This prophecy concerns the Full Church Age!
The word of Jesus has been spreading
to the rest of world and will continue to
do so as long as the Lord tarries.
-----------------------------------

Matthew 24:4-14 shows that the Church Age continues.
When these signs cease, the world will be headed into
the inter-age time: The Tribulation Period.


This believe of mine renders your other question simple:

//1.) Who will preach this gospel? Who are His witnesses? Who is the nations? Why must it be preached to all nations... will some of the nations be saved?//

We will, untill we depart.

'The nations' are China, India, Russia, USofA, Brazil,
Japan, etc. -- to name a few highly populated countries.


In the Tribulation Period it is only important that the Jewes
receive the gospel. There will be 144,000 set aside for
helping Jesus. There will be the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

As for Romans 10:14-17 - that also is in the
current Church Age. Also, now we have lots of preaching tapes
that will be left behind, when we Christians are gone.

Much of this I agree with... but Christ was talking to His disciples? Are they not the church? 1Cor. 12:28 "And God hath sent some in the church, first "apostles" secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, govermants, diversities of tongues."

Also, Rev. 12:15-17 " The woman (Israel- Rev12:5) is being sought to be killed (war made) by the serpent (Satan) as the earth helps Her (Israel) the Serpent turns after "HER SEED" the church; (those who keep the commandments of God, and HAVE the testimony of Jesus Christ.) I can't see anyone aside from the church being able to keep the commandments of God AND have His testimony. Mt. 28:20; 1 Jn 3:22-24. We see two groups of people here, Israel and the church.

This war (most would agree) is taken place during the Great Tribulation; after the middle of the week.

Who is Her "seed" other than the church?

Lord bless!

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Who is Her "seed" other than the church? //

You speak of Revelation 12.

Her seed is that other of God's other 'church': Yisrael,
God's other 'elect': Yisrael

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

God seems to see three groups of people at
some times (in the eternal order of things
the Jewish/Israeli and the largely gentile
Church of God are one body)

1. lost Gentiles
2. saved Jews
3. saved Gentiles (AKA: Church of God)

Some people say that God had a back-up plan
in case the Jews wouldn't follow His Son, Jesus.
That isn't the case. The Church of God elect
church was God's first plan.

--------------------------

Foundation of the world[/b] in KJV1769:
Mt 13:35 (KJV1769):
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mt 25:34 (KJV1769):
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Lu 11:50 (KJV1769):
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Heb 4:3 (KJV1769):
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 9:26 (KJV1769):
For then must he often have suffered [/b]since the foundation of the world[/b]: but now once in the end of the world[/b] hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Pe 1:20 (KJV1769):
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Re 13:8 (KJV1769):
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 17:8 (KJV1769):
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is


Joh 17:24 (KJV1769):
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 (KJV1769):
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
-----------------------------

The three 'before the foundation of the world'
all refer to the largely Gentile Church of God.

 

[landmarker33]

I not following you on your last post? Rev. 12:5 speaks of the woman as Israel. As you look further down in speaks of her "seed" another group of people. I guess we should not forget the promise made to Abraham fulfield in Christ. Romans 9 and 11 speak of us being engrafted into the promise of Israel because of Christ.

I do believe God's elect are national Israel and also his church which Christ purchased with His own blood. (Acts 20:28)

We must also consider that Romans-Revelation are all church letters. We should maybe look at what makes up a church? Saved-baptized believers carrying-out the Great Commission with proper authority.

Thanks for the thoughts!

 

[Ed Edwards]

I absolutely do NOT see why there cannot be two
symbols (metaphors) for the same group.

As part of the Largely Gentile Church Age saved,
redeemed, elect, regenerated, Universal Church;
we are both part of the Body of Christ and the Bride
of Christ. Sorry, both are metaphors that show part
of our special relationship with G-d -- the whole of which is
more than our human selves can figure.

So no, it doesn't bother me: National Yisrael
is AS (to make a simile) the woman of Revelation 12;
National Yisrael is AS the seed of the woman.
(or what you said works also).