Brother Bob
New Member
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Unless I misunderstood you.
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An Honest look at the Sovereignty of God
- Thread starter BobRyan
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Unless I misunderstood you.
Brother Bob
New Member
I guess a person could omit all the rest and just use those words and not commit himself.Who else but a Sovereign God could create a person, subject to vanity but not willingly, but by reason Him who subjected the same in Hope. In other words, able to choose "good or evil", and if he chose evil, God in His Sovereignity, gave man Hope in His Son.
Quite a Sovereign God, don't you think. I mean He was so Sovereign, that He could create man, anyway He wanted, and not what some say He should of created Him.
Who are you to say God can't create us anyway He wants, to the "pleasure of His own will"?
It says "being transformed". Where does scripture change it and say "not now, but somewhere in the future we will all receive the change.
Anyway, this is what you said and no where does it mention in the "future".
Only Christian are being created in God's likeness. Gen 5:3 tells us that man is created in the likeness of Adam.
Me thinks you are picking your words now.
Brother Bob
New Member
...............
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Pastor Larry said:
True "all PEOPLE" not "ALL life forms on the planet" --
I think we all get that.
Quote please.
It means that you have inserted ideas and mixed context when it comes to john 12:32 instead of just dealing with the text.
Please deal with the scripture at hand for this point from John 12:32.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quote:
God chooses to allow free will - and by definition is STILL sovereign since it is HIS choice to make!
"Choose you this day whom you will serve" -- God never stated "the problem comes in when I allow you to have a choice".
God supernaturally created a free will system -
Notice that this point is seen clearly in Job 1 and again in Acts 5 with Annanias and Sapphira "While it was in your hands it was yours to do with as you pleased - why then did you lie to the Holy Spirit"
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Is 53:6 -
All of us like sheep have gone astray,Each of us has turned to his own way;But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us allTo fall on Him
this is NOT limited to "The elect" nor is it saying "only Jews ever go astray" as Calvinists like to clalim about "WE" and "ALL".
"ALL have sinned" Rom 3:23 this is NOT limited to "The elect" as the wooden rule of Calvinism would have you believe.
No such definition of "sovereign" can be found in all of scripture.
It is pure nonsense.
Obviously.
By "contrast" we have "actual scripture" as in Acts 5 --
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Text please.
(BTW - that is the "Old JohnP" that I have come to know from the past. I was beginning to wonder if this latest one was really the same guy. But "it's official" now).
Welcome back sir.
In Christ,
bob
God chooses to allow free will - and by definition is STILL sovereign since it is HIS choice to make!
"Choose you this day whom you will serve" -- God never stated "the problem comes in when I allow you to have a choice".
God supernaturally created a free will system -
Notice that this point is seen clearly in Job 1 and again in Acts 5 with Annanias and Sapphira "While it was in your hands it was yours to do with as you pleased - why then did you lie to the Holy Spirit"
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Is 53:6 -
All of us like sheep have gone astray,Each of us has turned to his own way;But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us allTo fall on Him
this is NOT limited to "The elect" nor is it saying "only Jews ever go astray" as Calvinists like to clalim about "WE" and "ALL".
"ALL have sinned" Rom 3:23 this is NOT limited to "The elect" as the wooden rule of Calvinism would have you believe.
No such definition of "sovereign" can be found in all of scripture.
It is pure nonsense.
Obviously.
By "contrast" we have "actual scripture" as in Acts 5 --
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
Text please.
(BTW - that is the "Old JohnP" that I have come to know from the past. I was beginning to wonder if this latest one was really the same guy. But "it's official" now).
Welcome back sir.
In Christ,
bob
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Did I say that God gets bored? He doesn't. But maybe if God was forced to beleive your theology he would be bored. You force God into a box. Naturally he would be bored with the way you believe.johnp. said:Is anything too difficult for God, I'm sure nothing bores Him or, I am sure everything does. Next time I wonder what gets God down I'll ask you DHK.
He did not create man as bored programmed automatons
I said:
He created man, in his own image and likeness--which means that man was created with some of the same attributes that God has.
God's Word says:
Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
If you care to argue with God, then so be it. But man was created in the image and likeness of God. When man fell, that image was marred because of sin. But we are still created in his image and likeness. It is partially restored at salvation, and will never be totally restored until we reach heaven, the reason being that the sin nature that we inherited from Adam will never be eradicated until Christ comes.
The image and likeness of God never refers to a physical image or likeness.
It refers first of all to some of the attributes that God has: love, justice, mercy, kindness, the fruit of the Spirit, etc.
It refers secondly to the ability to choose, to reason, to use his intellect.
Lastly it refers to the fact that man, like God, is a triune being: body, soul and spirit. Man has a spirit; animals don't. These are some of the ways in which man is made in the image and likeness of God.
The reason man goes to heaven is because he believes on Jesus Christ.
The reason man goes to hell is because he believes not on Jesus Christ.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
God has given you a choice. Are you saved? Was there a time and place when you chose to believe on Christ, or did someone force you?
Or, are you still waiting to be called as one of God's elect; if so how will you know that you are one of God's elect or not? Maybe you are not one of God's elect. How can you be sure that you are not one of God's elect, unless you chose to be one of the elect of God?
You can't prove God is Sovereign by having Him give it away but I prove God is Sovereign by Him not giving it away DHK.
Sure, everyone believes you talk on behalf of God feelings.
The reason man goes to Hell is because God chose that for them. RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Do me a favour then and point these attributes out from Romans 3:10-18. Man is made in the likeness of Adam.
john.
Sure, everyone believes you talk on behalf of God feelings.
The reason man goes to Hell is because God chose that for them. RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Do me a favour then and point these attributes out from Romans 3:10-18. Man is made in the likeness of Adam.
john.
I never stated that I didn't believe in the sovereignty of God. What made you think that I did. I may disagree with your view of the sovereignty of God, especially if you define it the same way that Arminius did.johnp. said:
God is indeed sovereign; but within that sovereignty remainn a God who has given man a will to choose between good and evill.
What about you? Are you saved?
Are you one of the elect?
How do you know?
Did you choose to believe in Christ so that you would be one of the elect?
What if you are not one of the elect, and you chose wrongly? Is your choice all in vain then? Are you condemned to Hell as an unsaved pagan without any choice to do anything about it?
Or is it true that you actually chose to be one of God's elect? I would like to hear an answer from you on these questilons.
I don't talk about God's feelings; but I will talk about God. I am sorry that you have such an inadequate concept and knowledge of the God of the Bible. That is truly sad. God has no feelings. He doesn't operate according to what mood he is in. He is not capricious or cruel. If he gets up on the wrong side of the bed he is not grouchy all day. He doesn't operate according to if he sleepy or alert. He doesn't work according to his feelings. He has none. He is God. He is all sufficient. He has no need of anything--especially a psychiatrist as you seem to imply. That borders on blasphemy doesn't it?
Acts 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
--God doesn't need anythig. He doesn't need emotions. The Bible sometimes portays God as having emotions, just as it protrays God as having hands, wings, eyes, feet, and so on. The Bible also says "God is spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. A spirit doesn't have wings and hands, etc. These are all anthropormorphisms to aid us in our understanding of who God is. God does not have emotions. He is all sufficient. He does not lack in anything.
Typical for a Calvinist to pull out Scripture that pertains to Israel. You fall on that all the time, don't you. Can you do the same thing with those Scriptures which pertain to NT believers only? I think not. The plan of salvation in its simple and most basic and complete form is laid out for us here:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
We are saved by faith and faith alone. It is faith in the grace of God, and what He did on the cross for us. You have the choice to believe or not to believe. No one is forcing your hand. God will not force you to believe.
If you believe not Gen.1:26,27, then take your argument up with God. I cannot help you. If you believe not the Scriptures what else is there left for man to do. Might as well argue with an atheist.
Romans 3:10-18 deal with the charateristics of a depraved heart, that has resulted from Adam's fall. You are off topic. It has nothing to do whether or not we are made in the image and likeness of God. We are. The Bible declares so. If you choose to ignore what God says and infer that he is lying to you, then so be it. I can't help you; I am only the messenger of his message.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Text please.
By "contrast" we have "actual scripture" as in Acts 5 --
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
(BTW - that is the "Old JohnP" that I have come to know from the past. I was beginning to wonder if this latest one was really the same guy. But "it's official" now).
Welcome back sir.
In Christ,
bob
As I pointed out, Bob, it doesn't say "All people." It says "all." All of what? the context must reveal that to us. And when you read the context, you see that the issue is whether or not Jesus will have an audience with Greeks. He says no, but when he is lifted up, that will change. He will draw all to himself, meaning clearly "all types, both Jew and Gentile."
Your post indicates that you do not get that.
Nice way to dodge the question. Please answer it.
So if God is not willing for any to perish, and some perish, does that mean that Isaiah and Paul were wrong when they said that none of God's will fails to come to pass?
I have. John 12:32 is the continuation of John 12:20. It is you who are not dealing with the text at hand. You don't deal with John 12:32 and you do not deal with the context of John 12:32.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The "UNQUALIFIED ALL" of 2Pet 3 is "qualified by Calvinists" as they "insert" "ALL the ELECT just the ELECT nobody else".
But the text does not say "THIS promise is only for the elect" so Calvinists make it up.
The text ALSO does not say "this is just for those people today who are now already in the church" speaking of the saints 2000 years ago and excluding us!!
Calvinists are pushing the ball up hill on this one as they ply their form of eisegesis on 2Pet 3 -- I do not envy them that job.
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" not "just the elect".
In Christ,
Bob
But the text does not say "THIS promise is only for the elect" so Calvinists make it up.
The text ALSO does not say "this is just for those people today who are now already in the church" speaking of the saints 2000 years ago and excluding us!!
Calvinists are pushing the ball up hill on this one as they ply their form of eisegesis on 2Pet 3 -- I do not envy them that job.
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" not "just the elect".
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This is the “all” the “unqualified all” scope of John 12. Christ does not say “only some of those who love their life will lose it”. Christ does not say “only some of those who discount their life in this world will keep it”. Christ does not say “for some of you – serving Me will mean following Me – for WHERE I am there a few of my servants will be also”. Christ does not say “The Father will honor some of those who serve Me”. Nor does He say “some of you will be allowed to choose to Serve Me”.
The statement above works as an all inclusive showing that to EVERYONE the call goes out and ANYONE may choose to serve, to honor, to follow Christ.
By Contrast – Christ shows that the message about being celebate is NOT for all mankind or even all of His followers. Matt 19:11
John 12
27 "" Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, " Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 "" Father, glorify Your name.'' Then a voice came out of heaven: ""I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.''
29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "" An angel has spoken to Him.''
30 Jesus answered and said, "" This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 "" Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 ""And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.''[/quote]
Christ is not using a slippery marketing tactic to make it “Appear” that He is more generous than He really is. He does not say “I draw at least one of every KIND of human”. Yet for some this is what they want Christ to be saying here. Rather the statement is framed in a way that fits the Arminian model perfectly. It must be “edited” to make it Calvinist.
,,,
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
44 And Jesus cried out and said, "" He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.
45 "" He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
46 "" I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
47 ""If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
The World wide – unlimited scope of Christ’s work is manifest “to save the world”.
“He who rejects my sayings” includes “ALL” the unqualified ALL of humanity. Nobody is going to get around it. The same global context is given --
Bob, please type in all one color and size. The Christmas affect is useless. It doesn't help your points.
I agree with you on this passage. I take the "all" as all men, and tie it to Ezekiel where we see that God does not desire the death of the wicked. He desires that all repent.
And you "insert" "all men." So what's the difference? You have both inserted things.
I agree with you on this passage. I take the "all" as all men, and tie it to Ezekiel where we see that God does not desire the death of the wicked. He desires that all repent.
Neither does it say it is for all men without exception, so you make it up.
Neither does Calvinism.
This is true. But no one, apart from the unilateral causative work of God will choose to serve, honor, and follow Christ. But God is not preventing them. They are prevented only by their own sinfulness.
Not at all. You insist on ignoring the context. That leads to bad conclusions.
Brother Bob
New Member
Which way?
Adam was NOT created evil because he was created in the image of God (as we all are) and God is not now, has never been, and never will be - evil.
I find I agree with this as well.
john
Which way do you believe it John, we are created in His image or only Christians are. You stated it both ways in the above posts.
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Quoted by BobRyan:
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."
GE quoting the same Authority:
"Nobody comes to the Me unless the Father draws him . . . . No one comes to the Father, but throu Me"
Bob, your quote presupposes unregenerate man. No born again believer can or will or shall reject Christ, ever!
No unregerate, no 'natural man', can or will or may, accept or believe Christ of his own volition or prone-to evil, will.
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."
GE quoting the same Authority:
"Nobody comes to the Me unless the Father draws him . . . . No one comes to the Father, but throu Me"
Bob, your quote presupposes unregenerate man. No born again believer can or will or shall reject Christ, ever!
No unregerate, no 'natural man', can or will or may, accept or believe Christ of his own volition or prone-to evil, will.