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An Honest look at the Sovereignty of God
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
You do not address the point Amy.G.
Why does God create those who will refuse Him? He knows all things doesn't He? Why does He create people for Hell if He doesn't want anyone to go there?
Yes. ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Rom 9:18.
john.
Why does God create those who will refuse Him? He knows all things doesn't He? Why does He create people for Hell if He doesn't want anyone to go there?
Yes. ...God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Rom 9:18.
john.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
Indeed in Acts 2 over 3000 ACCEPT it while others REJECT it -- free will.
In Rev 12 2/3's of the Angels CHOOSE to REMAIN faithful while 1/3 choose rebellion - free will.
In The Gospels the NATION of Israel chooses rejection of the Messiah while WITHIN that SAME nation Jewish disciples choose loyal acceptance and obedience to God's Messiah sent to save the world.
WE continue to see that free will system of "CHOICE" today as SOME accept and others reject the Gospel - God is still SOVEREIGN though He creates and SUSTAINS the free will system.
In Job 1 when Satan challenges God -- did God MAKE him Challenge the Word of God - or did God ALLOW him to?
Arminians admit that God ALLOWED it - He did not MAKE Satan do it.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Arminius said:
Amen! OBvious - clear and to the point.
Easy for all to see.
But here is what Calvinists like to "hide" -- they have to admit that the DRAWING of God in John 6 ENABLES that which they CLAIM that depravity DISABLES.
And we as Arminians admit to the scripture of John 12:32 telling us that "God DRAWS ALL MANKIND unto HIM"!!
That means that ALL are ENABLED to choose EVEN by Calvinist standards!
And YES - even THEN God is Sovereign!
How easy, obvious and glarinly blatant!
Nothing complicated to it - just accept the Word of God and believe.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnp.
drfuss. Why does God create those who will refuse Him? He knows all things doesn't He? Why does He create people for Hell if He doesn't want anyone to go there?
john.
This was already addressed in the Calvinist future scenario.
JohnP provides quotes in this like that PROVE the salient points of the scenario drawn
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...2&postcount=52
Beloved57 provides a quote that PROVES the salient point of the Calvinist scenario drawn
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...8&postcount=50
In Christ,
Bob
Originally Posted by johnp.
drfuss. Why does God create those who will refuse Him? He knows all things doesn't He? Why does He create people for Hell if He doesn't want anyone to go there?
john.
Amy said
So, He creates people for hell because He WANTS them to go there? Does this bring God pleasure?
__________________
This was already addressed in the Calvinist future scenario.
JohnP provides quotes in this like that PROVE the salient points of the scenario drawn
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...2&postcount=52
Beloved57 provides a quote that PROVES the salient point of the Calvinist scenario drawn
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...8&postcount=50
In Christ,
Bob
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Man has the technology to "create" or design a robot that will, if programmed, stand in one place and continuously bow down and say: "I worship DHK___(or whomever); I worship DHK, etc." But that would get dull after awhile. Even man would tire of it. If man, in his limited nature would tire of such, do you not think that God in His infinite incomprehensible Omniscience would stoop so low as to desire to create robots to inhabit the earth. No, that is not what He did.johnp. said:
He created man, in his own image and likeness--which means that man was created with some of the same attributes that God has. That includes the abiltiy to choose and to reason. God wanted man to choose to glorify Him of his own will. He didn't create a mindless robot who would repeat rote words 24/7. He wants man to glorify him of his own choosing. In order for that to happen he created man with a will.
God is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. That is true. But his foreknowledge does not take away from the choice that man has to choose between good and evil. His foreknowledge does not force a man to go to hell. Man sends himself there by the rejection of Jesus Christ.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
hmm - I agree with DHK on this???
So you admit that man can CHOOSE but also God remains sovereign EVEN though man is allowed choice??
Welcome aboard!
And I am happy to point out that my Calvinist scenario does not address the 3-point Calvinist model that would readily agree with your statement above.
In Christ,
Bob
So you admit that man can CHOOSE but also God remains sovereign EVEN though man is allowed choice??
Welcome aboard!
And I am happy to point out that my Calvinist scenario does not address the 3-point Calvinist model that would readily agree with your statement above.
In Christ,
Bob
Brother Bob
New Member
I don't want one!
Is anything too difficult for God, I'm sure nothing bores Him or, I am sure everything does. Next time I wonder what gets God down I'll ask you DHK.
Where does scripture say that God would get bored?Only Christian are being created in God's likeness. Gen 5:3 tells us that man is created in the likeness of Adam.
RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Not so. Men are born incapable and go to Hell through the condemnation Adam brought on us. If some hear the message - but not all hear do they?
john.
Brother Bob
New Member
Thats new!! It it were true then we would know who is a Christian and who is not.
Gen 1:26¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
It says "Them".
My sons look like me also.
Gen 5:3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
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Well Brother Bob, if what you say is true why then is there a need to be transformed into His image if we already are in His image?
2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
john.
2 Cor 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
john.
That is not the problem the problem comes when the man makes a choice. If God wants all men saved and some men, in their sovereignty, decide to decline the call then God cannot be Sovereign can He. Man gets what he wants and Poor Old God doesn't. Man is sovereign and God is not God.
The sovereignty you describe is nothing more than men have and that is not sovereignty. Sovereign Lord means Despot.
Parliament is sovereign here in the UK as long as it doesn't breach the EU laws and as long as people tolerate it and as long as... that ain't sovereignty but it tries Bob old chap.
john.
Brother Bob
New Member
This scripture is saying we become more christlike as we live here. I don't find where we will be transformed into His image but I do find where it says when we awake in His likeness, then we will be satisfied. "satisfied" should give you the answer to it all, no death, no tears, no pain, no sin.
Where does it say we will transformed into His Image?
Who else but a Sovereign God could create a person, subject to vanity but not willingly, but by reason Him who subjected the same in Hope. In other words, able to choose "good or evil", and if he chose evil, God in His Sovereignity, gave man Hope in His Son.
Quite a Sovereign God, don't you think. I mean He was so Sovereign, that He could create man, anyway He wanted, and not what some say He should of created Him.
Who are you to say God can't create us anyway He wants, to the "pleasure of His own will"?
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And has been pointed out ad nauseum, the verse doesn't say "all mankind." It says, "all," and in context, the "all" is "all types of people, including the Greeks." Read the passage rather than listen to Bob continue to try to confuse the issue.
So if God is not willing for any to perish, and some perish, does that mean that Isaiah and Paul were wrong when they said that none of God's will fails to come to pass?
Or does that mean that you simply do not understand the issues? Or at least hold a position that is clearly refuted by Scripture?
There are only so many options here and you have never resolved this issue. You obfuscate and dodge. You can't deal with Scripture.
Well Brother Bob, if what you say is true why then is there a need to be transformed into His image if we already are in His image?
image : noun 1 a likeness of a person or thing... are you saying they don't mean the same? 2 Cor 3:18 says we are being transformed and since we are being transformed then we cannot have been like Him because transformed means a complete change of nature.
Who are you to mislead others into thinking I did?
john.
Brother Bob
New Member
He created man, in his own image and likeness--which means that man was created with some of the same attributes that God has.
Only Christian are being created in God's likeness. Gen 5:3 tells us that man is created in the likeness of Adam.
Gen 1:26¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Please give scripture where only Christians are in His Image.
In some cases they are the same and some cases they could be different. Such as, we are sinners and God is not. We may be in His image but because we are sinners we are not in His likeness that way.
Gen 9:6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
I guess you need to take it up with God.
1Cr 11:7For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
There must be the image of being like God in one way and there is the image of being like God spiritually so.
Rom 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Gen. 5:
1: This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2: Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3: And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
If Seth was in the image of Adam and Adam was in the image of God, then please explain where the change is but also there are other scriptures.
Where do you get "some of God's attributes", I haven't found that, did you add it or what?
Are you able to say who is a Christian and who is not, being the Christians have been transformed. Also, if its only the Christians that are in His Image, then how come they have to be changed also, when they come out of the grave to "His Likeness"?
When I awake in His likeness, I will be satisfied.
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Brother Bob.
The change took place with the Fall. Genesis 9:6 is talking to Noah and Noah was being transformed. Everybody still alive was also being transformed.
I haven't found one that calls all men in this fashion.
Maybe, if you have a look at Rom 3:10-18, you could pinpoint exactly where fallen man's image or likeness to God is because I cannot see it.
And this is an instruction to Christians.
You must show this with scripture please.
john.
The change took place with the Fall. Genesis 9:6 is talking to Noah and Noah was being transformed. Everybody still alive was also being transformed.
I haven't found one that calls all men in this fashion.
Maybe, if you have a look at Rom 3:10-18, you could pinpoint exactly where fallen man's image or likeness to God is because I cannot see it.
And this is an instruction to Christians.
You must show this with scripture please.
john.
Brother Bob
New Member
This is after the fall.The change took place with the Fall. Genesis 9:6 is talking to Noah and Noah was being transformed. Everybody still alive was also being transformed.
1Cr 11:7For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
It says if a man. But for the sake of argument, lets take it as you say. Then why do the Christians also have to receive a change before the can go to Heaven, the flesh which is the part with the image.
You need to explain if the Christians are in His image, how come they too, have to receive a change? As Job said, when I awake in His likeness, then I will be satisfied.
Job 14:14If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Of course you know I can post the scriptures this corruptible must put on incorruption, this mortal, immortality.
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