Anglicans invited to take a Catholic view of Mary.

Here is a key transition. Praying to the dead is no longer seen by the Anglicans as "anything contrary to Christian practice".

Furthermore - at a time when the RCC is in the middle of going to extremes about Mary being sinless, co-reedeemer with Christ, co-mediator with Christ, Queen of heaven, all-powerful like God -- (something the RCC did not do until after the first 1000 years of Christian history and most of which she did in the last 100 years), it is NOW that the Anglican church says "there is nothing amiss here"???

The meltdown syndrome has begun. This is far beyond the point that the matyrs of the reformation took their stand - life or death. Far beyond the point where the RCC was willing to torture and kill their own dissenters.

In Christ,

Bob

 

9 THE NATURE OF CHRIST


Immaculate Conception

THE DOCTRINE
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."
"The Blessed Virgin Mary . . ." The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining in her soul to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VII
Copyright © 1910

According to the church of Rome, in the above explanation of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was seperated from the rest of humanity by God. She did not inherit that which all the rest of humanity inherited through Adam and Eve, when they fell in the garden. That is to say, she did not have a fallen, sinful nature. This doctrine is wholly extra biblical. It has no foundation in the scriptures at all, and for this reason, we will not even address the issue of wether it is biblical or not. We will examine however, it's effects upon the heart of the gospel message to this fallen world.

Luke 1:28-35 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

As is apparent from the scriptures above, the conception of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was unlike that of any other of the human race. God himself was Jesus' Father. This is the foundation of the mystery of Godliness. This truth is the salvation of humanity. However, it is not this truth alone that is our salvation, but also the truth that Christ's mother, was one of us. God became a man. Divinity and humanity were united in Christ, bridging the gap created between God and humanity through the disobedience of our first parents.

Gen 22:17-18 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:4-6 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

Acts 3:25-26 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Rom 1:1-4 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

2 Tim 2:7-8 7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Heb 2:14-16 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Christ took upon himself the seed of Abraham, and the seed of David, according to the flesh. These men did not have immaculate conceptions. They were sinners, just as you and I are. Yes, Just as Mary was also. If in fact, Mary was not one of us, then Christ did not unite himself to the entirety of the humane race, that was, is, and always will be, this side of heaven, in desperate need of salvation. The false doctrine of the immaculate conception is yet another doctrine of the church of Rome which sperates humanity from their Savior. This doctrine completely undermines the entire gospel message.

Jesus Christ became one of us, in order to save us from the sinful flesh that we inherited from our first parents. This He did, by crucifying the deeds of the flesh, and allowing the deeds of his Father to be fulfilled within him. This is what makes it possible for us to pick up the cross and follow him. However, if Christ did not even have our flesh, how could he possibly have conquered the sins of the flesh that we struggle with, and ask us to follow him? He could not, and he would not. To the contrary, it was for this very purpose that he took upon himself our very own flesh, and nature, yet without sin. This is our salvation.

Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:14-16 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

As the book of Hebrews points out, it is the very fact that Jesus Christ became completely one of us, that qualifies him to be our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Because he knows and completely understands us, he ever liveth to make intercession for us. (Heb. 7: 25-27) Christ took upon himself our fallen natures, that he might redeem us from this very nature, or flesh if you will. He fought and won this battle with the flesh on our behalf, seeing that we could never have accomplished this victory. Although he took upon himself our fallen nature, Christ never sinned, and this is our salvation.

Rom 8:2-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Our Lord and Savior condemned sin in the flesh, by living in our very flesh, but never fulfilling the desires of the flesh. By depending completely on his heavenly Father, and the power of His Holy Spirit, Christ continually crucified the desires of the flesh, thereby fulfilling the will of his Father. This he did until it lead him to the cross, where he was literally crucified for the sins of the world. Christ did not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Now those who wish to do so, may lay down their lives at the foot of the cross with their Lord and Savior, and pick up the cross and follow Jesus. Christ condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in those who choose to follow him, and walk in the Spirit, instead of the flesh.

John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:28 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The Lord Jesus Christ did nothing of himself. For he was God, and man. If he lived by the strength of his own divinity, then he would not be our salvation, for we have no divinity from within ourselves to live with. If he lived, or walked by the flesh, then he could not be our salvation, for he would have lived, or walked in sin. But no, Christ lived, and walked by the Spirit, fulfilling the will of the Father. This is our salvation. Now we can do the same in Christ.

John 14:10-11 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 15:4-5 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If we abide in Christ, first and foremost being crucified with him, then he may abide in us through the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Just as he abode in his Father as one of us, so may we abide in him unto salvation.

Phil 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus crucified the deeds of the flesh all his life long, until it led him to the literal cross. The true Christians life, must begin, where Christ's ended, at the cross. When we die in Christ on the cross, we are justified. The law demands the death of the one who breaks it. Therefore Christ has made it possible for us to enter into his death, that the just demands of the law may be fulfilled. When we die with him, we are justified. When he lives in us, we are sanctified. The is the spiritual service of the Christian, to give their bodies as a living sacrifice unto the Lord, that he might dwell within them unto salvation.(Rom. 12:1&2)

Gal 5:17-25 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The true Christian seeks to always walk in the Spirit, and not in the flesh. Of course, it is not possible to walk in the Spirit, unless you have first crucified the flesh. The Christian is only able to crucify the flesh in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one who took our sinful flesh, and crucified it's desires all his life long, resulting in his literal crucifixion. His flesh, was our flesh. If you take this truth away, you destroy the entire gospel message. What good would it do any of us, if Christ crucified some kind of flesh that we have no part of?

II Jn 1:7 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The Lord Jesus Christ came in the flesh, our flesh. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception undermines this foundational truth of the gospel message. By teaching this false doctrine, the church of Rome manifest's the spirit of antichrist. This is only right of course, since her doctrines serve the purpose of seperating humanity from God, while Christ came to do just the oppossite. The scriptures no where indicate that the flesh Christ took upon himself was different from the flesh of the rest of humanity. The scriptures do point out that Christ was of the seed of Abraham, and of David according to the flesh, not of the seed of some human that had no original sin. we will close this chapter with the following verses.

John 1:1-14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

People need to realise that there are two anglican churches, one is High Anglican, the other Evangelical Anglican. There is not a lot of difference between High Anglicanism and Roman Catholicsm as they stand anyway, so a document like this is nothing all that new.

 

True Ben. You also have your leftwing Anglicans which are typical here in the USA and then you have Evangelical Anglicans like J.I. Packer (5 point Calvinist) and John Stott and those in Africa and Asia are extremely Evangelical. The High Anglicans while having similarities at times to Roman Catholics will differ with them in many areas and some of them seem to lean more toward Eastern Orthodox theology at times rather than Roman Catholicism .

 

That is interesting Kiffin, in Australia it is not unusual for High Anglican Ministers even if married to switch over and be put in as Roman Catholic priests.

Yet we have one Baptist Minister here that switched back the other way, he was a Catholic priest and became a Baptist Union minister.

 

Ben W,

I hate to inform you but there are many Baptist Ministers which become Catholic each year.

In fact, there is a website dedicated to telling there stories:
http://www.chnetwork.org/

 

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

I differ of the theological position of the so-called high church and low church. I grew up and was schooled in the so-called high church. The theology does not differ. There is but one Anglican Church. What differs is the form of worship.

This is not to say that some men within the two groups may differ in personal views. There is but one prayer book.

In the early days, the most evangelical branch of the Anglican Church in Canada, was the high church. The low church seminary was rather liberal in theology.

Even to-day, in Canada and in England, there are a goodly number of evangelicals in the so-called high churches. In fact, when I was going home every year, I spent a month preaching in those high churches and was quite welcomed without compromising what I preached as a Baptist minister.

Yes, there was and are a goodly number of solid theologians within the Anglican communion, and a goodly number of theological books came out of Anglican circles, both high and low churches.

Again, let's not paint all with one brush stroke. Baptists don't have a monopoly on truth, and there are a goodly number of Baptist churches I would just as soon not attend.

Cheers,

Jim

 

No doubt, I was just pointing out a particular case that I knew of, I had no intention to make a disparaging remark about the Roman Catholic Church.

 

Ok - so lets think about this for a minute.


Where are they on the following?

1. The inerrancy of scripture.
2. Is the Genesis "account" of the Creator's act of Crating life on this earth to be trusted as really literally true?
3. Should Christians pray to the dead?
4. Does one have to knowingly accept salvation to be saved - or is there a magic power among priests that can "do that for you" no matter what you may "know" at the time?
5. Since the fall of Adam - are ALL humans procreated as sinners in need of salvation - or are some born "sinless"??
6. Are the "abominations" God defines in Lev 18, (Those HE applies to pagan nations) really wrong for Anglicans to practice - or are they free to engage in abominations that brought judgment on pagan nations?

What would all the various flavors of Anglicanism say to those Bible inquiries?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Why do we marvel when the daughters of Rome return to their mother? It is the fulfillment of prophecy. The world is being prepared for the Antichrist.

Are we ready?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Ok - so lets think about this for a minute.


Where are they on the following?

1. The inerrancy of scripture.
2. Is the Genesis "account" of the Creator's act of Crating life on this earth to be trusted as really literally true?
3. Should Christians pray to the dead?
4. Does one have to knowingly accept salvation to be saved - or is there a magic power among priests that can "do that for you" no matter what you may "know" at the time?
5. Since the fall of Adam - are ALL humans procreated as sinners in need of salvation - or are some born "sinless"??
6. Are the "abominations" God defines in Lev 18, (Those HE applies to pagan nations) really wrong for Anglicans to practice - or are they free to engage in abominations that brought judgment on pagan nations?

What would all the various flavors of Anglicanism say to those Bible inquiries?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]At the risk of generalisation, here's what I suspect the three main types of Anglican (A-C=Anglo-Catholic/ high church/ traditionalist/ smells'n'bells, E=evangelical, L=liberal), following your numbered paragraphs:-

1. E - mainly, yes, although some would not accept inerrancy, they would certainly regard Scripture as trustworthy and of high authority; A-C - similar to E except they would place Tradition in the same category; L - no, they would at best subscribe to the 'tripod' of Scripture, Tradition and Reason

2. Flows from #1 above

3. A-C - in some cases; E&L - no

4. E - yes to the former; A-C - yes to the latter; L - neither absolutely, at best a bit of both

5. E&A-Cs believe in Original Sin; L more woolly on the subject

6. L - no, not really. E&A-Cs - yes in the main (NB there are a few A-Cs who are also Ls)

Hope that helps!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I wouldn't know how all the various flavors of Baptists would say to those Bible inquiries much less Anglicans! Since Anglicanism is about as diverse as Baptists.

Anglicans such as Packer, Stott and many in Asia and Africa hold strictly to the 39 Articles of Religion which is one of the classic Protestant Confessions.

 

So then Anglicans do not have a central governing administration nor any formal means of agreeing to doctrinal statements across their congregations?

I am surprised to find that they have no leadership above the local congregation.

 

Assuming that Anglecans do have a way to formulate doctrine for the denomination above the level of a single local congregation --

the questions remain

 

As for how Baptists would respond to that list - my guess is that "at the congregational level" they would be uniformly agreed to something like the following --

#1. The Bible is inspired and innerrant.
#2. God's Genesis "account" is trustworthy, accurate and literal.
#3. It is a sin to pray to the dead
#4. No powers exist among pastors or priest to "save souls" that are not able to hear and accept the Gospel. To be saved one must be a "believer".
#5. Since the fall of Adam ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and ALL are in need of salvation. ALL have a sinful nature.
(including Mary).
#6. ??

In any case - I am not a Baptist but I think that general swipe at an answer above is pretty close to the Baptist answer "at a congregational level" if not also at a "Convention level" as in the Southern Baptists.

Having said that - My guess is that the Anglican "answer" would be nothing like that, regardless of the flavor one chooses. (But I would love to be proven wrong on that guess.)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

I am not a defender of the Anglican Church. The ECUSA in the USA is overall apostate. You will however find some in the ECUSA that are Evangelical, classical Arminian or even Calvinistic. That is not counting the break off Anglican Communions such as the Reformed Episcopal Church, Anglican Mission In America, Charismatic Episcopal Church which do hold to inerrancy, Genesis account, Total Depravity, Salvation by Grace through Faith etc...

The Church of Nigeria and the African Churches as well as the Asian Churches are overall Evangelical. Here is some links

http://www.anglican-nig.org/prlttr_northamerica.htm

http://www.anglican-nig.org/home.htm

The Arch bishop of Canterbury does not have the control that a Pope in Rome has. The Anglican Communion is made up of several Anglican Churches and these Churches differ greatly in much of their theology. Western Anglican bishops generally have not exercised much authority at times regarding doctrine and is why they are so diverse ranging from Evangelical Calvinist (J.I. Packer, J.C. Ryle), Evangelical Conservative (John Stott), Apostate Liberal (John Spong) Anglo Catholic (Edward Pusey. It is the primary reason Anglicanism is dying in the west.

The Anglican Communion is in shambles and I would dare say the Historic Anglican Church of the Reformation exists in Nigeria, Africa and Asia.

 

Er...Bob, I already had a stab at answering your question, so why are you asking it again - didn't you read my post?

And, no, although the Anglican Communion is episcopal, with the AoC as its hierarchical head, in reality it is much more decentralised than that. In the UK, it tends to be the local vicar and Parochial Church Council who determine the 'flavour' of the church.

Yours in Christ

Matt