Another Calvinistic Error

[Robert Snow]

Limited Atonement, according to the Calvinist says that Christ only died for the elect. Yet, I John 2:2 disproves this belief.

1Jn 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[zrs6v4]

Limited Atonement, according to the Calvinist says that Christ only died for the elect. Yet, I John 2:2 disproves this belief.

1Jn 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

If Christ died for the sins of the whole world (which in my opinion doesn't mean all people who ever lived), then why do people who die without repenting of their sin actually have to pay for their sin? what are they going to hell for?

You would have
#1 Christ paying for sin and taking the wrath
#2 the individual who died in sin paying for his own sin as well

Now God has poured out 2 penalties for one persons sins and has become unjust.

I would say the whole world does not mean every human being who ever lived in that context. I think John means that Christ isn't just the propitiation for only the sins of those who the letter is to (the readers), but for the whole body of Christ.

If John doesn't mean what I said, the best case would be that John is talking about the fact that the offer is to the whole world. The offer is to all who repent and believe in the Gospel. In Calvinism, those who truly repent and believe would be your elect. This is the common response.

If Jesus paid for everyone's sins then nobody would be in hell and you would have universalism.

 

[preachinjesus]

I don't think The OP understands limited atonement fully. (BTW I'm not reformed.) A proper Calvinist reply would be simply that limited atonement means that whe Christ's is available to all it is only sufficient for the elect...or those who have been justifies by grace through faith.

 

[Robert Snow]

I think I understand what Calvinism teaches concerning "limited atonement." Of course, there is so much debate in the fog of Calvinistic definitions that it is sometimes difficult to nail down what they believe.

My interaction with Calvinists have shown me that they believe that Christ's atoning blood is only effective for the elect. I say that Jesus Christ died for every person who has or who will ever live. The forgiveness if there, it only has to be accepted.

 

[canadyjd]

My interaction with Calvinists have shown me that they believe that Christ's atoning blood is only effective for the elect. I say that Jesus Christ died for every person who has or who will ever live. The forgiveness if there, it only has to be accepted.

And what about all the untold billions that have lived and died never hearing the name of Jesus Christ? Did they ever have a chance to accept that forgiveness?

What about all the people who lived and died prior to Christ? Did they have a chance to accept that forgiveness?

Can a person be saved without hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ?

peace to youraying:

 

[sag38]

What about them? They are in God's hands to deal with as He chooses. Why wonder about those who haven't heard in the past, now, or in the future? My concern is for those who have heard and the responsibility that they bear upon hearing. My concern is for my personal responsibility to share the message with as many as God will use me to share it with.

 

[Robert Snow]

And what about all the untold billions that have lived and died never hearing the name of Jesus Christ? Did they ever have a chance to accept that forgiveness?

What about all the people who lived and died prior to Christ? Did they have a chance to accept that forgiveness?

Can a person be saved without hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ?

peace to youraying:

I wish I knew all the answers, but I don't. I do feel that the book of Job sheds some in site. He lived before the Law and probably before Abraham, yet God said he was upright and one that feared God. Job did say that his redeemer lived. I think he looked forward to the cross, like we look back at it. The nation of Israel looked toward the cross and they also trusted in God. Neither I nor you know exactly who God dealt with mankind in every place at every time.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Job is a wonderful book isn't it.

 

[canadyjd]

What about them? They are in God's hands to deal with as He chooses.

Hasn't God already told us in His word how He has chosen to deal with them?

Again, do you believe the gospel is necessary for salvation?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

I wish I knew all the answers, but I don't. ..... Neither I nor you know exactly who God dealt with mankind in every place at every time.

And yet, you said...

Robert Snow said: I say that Jesus Christ died for every person who has or who will ever live. The forgiveness if there, it only has to be accepted.

So you are saying that you know how God has dealt with every person who as ever lived. You said the forgiveness is there, it only has to be accepted.

How is it accepted if the person has already died?

Do you believe a person can be saved after he has died?

Do you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation?

peace to youraying:

 

[sag38]

Yes, I believe that salvation is necessary for one to live in God's presence in glory.

 

[webdog]

If Christ died for the sins of the whole world (which in my opinion doesn't mean all people who ever lived), then why do people who die without repenting of their sin actually have to pay for their sin? what are they going to hell for?

You would have
#1 Christ paying for sin and taking the wrath
#2 the individual who died in sin paying for his own sin as well

Now God has poured out 2 penalties for one persons sins and has become unjust.

I would say the whole world does not mean every human being who ever lived in that context. I think John means that Christ isn't just the propitiation for only the sins of those who the letter is to (the readers), but for the whole body of Christ.

If John doesn't mean what I said, the best case would be that John is talking about the fact that the offer is to the whole world. The offer is to all who repent and believe in the Gospel. In Calvinism, those who truly repent and believe would be your elect. This is the common response.

If Jesus paid for everyone's sins then nobody would be in hell and you would have universalism.

I think your question is a non sequitur. Man can never pay for their own sin (not even a single sin) in hell. If man pays for their own sin in Hell, God is eternally unpaid as a finite man committing an infinite crime against and infinite God can never be payment. That is why Christ who is infinite can satisfy God's wrath against sin...all sin...for all time.

 

[Martin]

Limited Atonement, according to the Calvinist says that Christ only died for the elect. Yet, I John 2:2 disproves this belief.

1Jn 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

==While I agree with you that 1John 2:2 causes a serious problem for 5 point Calvinists, I don't think your post is going to do anything to change anyone's thinking on the matter. You offer no explanation or indication that you are aware of how 5 point Calvinists understand the passage. So my question to you is, and this should be a real softball, why does 1John 2:2 offer a challenge to 5 point Calvinism?

Sincerely,
A 4 and 1/2 point Calvinist (does such a thing exist?)
Martin.

 

[Martin]

A good book on this matter is "The Death Christ Died: A Biblical Case for Unlimited Atonement" by Robert Lightner of Dallas Theological Seminary. :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[zrs6v4]

I think your question is a non sequitur. Man can never pay for their own sin (not even a single sin) in hell. If man pays for their own sin in Hell, God is eternally unpaid as a finite man committing an infinite crime against and infinite God can never be payment. That is why Christ who is infinite can satisfy God's wrath against sin...all sin...for all time.

We sort of got into this discussion on another thread

I agree that no man can ever pay for his own sin, because I would say that each sin is penalized with eternal consequences. Therefore as you say God's wrath is never fully satisfied and justice is an eternal payment of wrath from God to the sinner. This would mean justice is met in an eternal sentence. I think the worse the sinner is, the worse degree of hell they will have, but there are some who hold that all have the same degree of hell.

I think you raise a good point, and please critique what I just said.

I still think it is wrong for everyone to be going to hell simply because they have rejected a Savior. I think that has some truth to it, but as I said in the other thread, I think when people die in sin, they go to hell for their sins. If Christ paid for them then they arent going to hell for their sins.

I think this is definitely a tough topic to understand so dont think I have reached an ultimate destination on my logic. I do think Scripture is clear that God perfectly and precisely died for the elect and paid for their sin and I dont see why a non-Cal would deny this even in their view of foreknowledge.

I agree with the point that God's grace is sufficient for all mankind, but I dont think Jesus died just in case some would surprise Him and believe.

I also think when looking at Jesus payment it is vital to have a proper outlook on our condition:

1. We must ask ourselves if we deserve a Savior and a chance? NO
2. Is it fair for God to not save some? Yes

and so forth... I think God in some sense is willing to pay for all, but in the deepest truth only died for His elect because they are the only ones who would repent and believe. Yes I do think there is Scripture supporting both.

 

[Amy.G]

People go to hell for one reason only.

Joh*3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Robert Snow]

How is it accepted if the person has already died?

Do you believe a person can be saved after he has died?

Do you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation?

peace to youraying:

First, I don't think a person can be saved after they have died in their sins.

Second, I do believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation.

I base these decisions on what the Bible says. Now, I don't know how God inputed righteousness to those before the Law, such as Job. I assume they believed what God said, and like Abraham, God counted it for righteousness on their behalf.

As far as those today who don't hear the Gospel, it appears to me that, without the Gospel being preached to them, they die in their sins. Other than that it is in God's hands. Like I said, I don't know everything.

Now, instead of asking questions, why don't you state what you believe and why you believe it.

 

[canadyjd]

People go to hell for one reason only.

Joh*3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you believe that the only reason a person goes to hell is because they reject the gospel of Jesus Christ?

If that is what you mean, wouldn't it be better never to witness to anyone? Just let them die in ignorance so they never get an opportunity to reject Jesus Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, I believe that salvation is necessary for one to live in God's presence in glory.

That wasn't the question.

Do you believe the gospel is necessary for salvation?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

First, I don't think a person can be saved after they have died in their sins....Second, I do believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation.

Thank you for answering directly.

I base these decisions on what the Bible says. Now, I don't know how God inputed righteousness to those before the Law, such as Job. I assume they believed what God said, and like Abraham, God counted it for righteousness on their behalf.

I believe we are in agreement.

As far as those today who don't hear the Gospel, it appears to me that, without the Gospel being preached to them, they die in their sins.

I believe we are in agreement.

Now, instead of asking questions, why don't you state what you believe and why you believe it.

I responded to your statements. They raised questions in my mind and I was curious how you would reconcile your statements with the questions.

For instance, your original statement was that forgiveness was available to everyone, it only had to be accepted.

But, upon answering the questions, I see now that is not what you believe.

You believe the forgiveness of Christ is only available to those who hear the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Did I understand you correctly?

peace to youraying: