another pov on the mistaken rapture view

[thomas15]

I believe all christians believe in the rapture. It happens on the last day even if people do not like the word itself.The newer views say it happens at different points along the way.

This pov is brought to you by... an individual who thinks that Jesus returned in AD70 (a concept kept secret for almost 2000 years), that all but a few prophecies (as in 1 or 2) in the Bible are fufilled and we are now living in the millinneum with satan bound and that Babylon is a code word for Jerusalem.

Since we are in this individuals mind living in the Kingdom, he thinks that the human condition will get better and better until everyone on the planet is a Christian and then Jesus will come yet again to apparently judge the physical planet and then do something related to the eternal state.

So that's who we are dealing with.

 

[OldRegular]

Not all Churches embraced it though... your referring to Baptist Churches.

It was also in some Presbyterian churches. J. Vernon McGee was a Presbyterian! Scofield was a Congregationalist. However, Baptists bit hard!

 

[OldRegular]

It was not well received because dispensationalism is the default eschatological system in the West. Darby's system has its appeal. It provides a certain amount of precision. While it does not provide a date for the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, it does have milestones that provide a tidy system for understanding eschatology; i.e. the re-establishment of Israel in Palestine, a personal anti-Christ, a premillennial rapture of the Church et. al. This type of system appealed to those who were looking for answers. Dispensationalism seemed to have those answers. Thus, Darby's novel approach to the end times spread rapidly towards the latter half of the 19th Century. The early 20th Century found dispensationalism in almost every denomination. It became so pervasive that it became that default system I mentioned earlier. When it is challenged it engenders a strong response. It took me over 10 years to abandon its grip.

Very interesting story. I have read of several others who made the move from classic Dispensationalism. I have a commentary on Revelation by John P.Newport of Southwestern Seminary who made the move to historic premillennialism. I have heard that George Ladd was a dispensationalist but I am not sure. He is currently a historic premillennialist. I believe that Pink was at one time a dispensationalist. Philip Mauro, a lawyer and writer of the early 20th century was a one time dispensationalist. His book the Gospel of the Kingdom is a critique of dispensational doctrine.

 

[Iconoclast]

This pov is brought to you by... an individual who thinks that Jesus returned in AD70 (a concept kept secret for almost 2000 years), that all but a few prophecies (as in 1 or 2) in the Bible are fufilled and we are now living in the millinneum with satan bound and that Babylon is a code word for Jerusalem.

Since we are in this individuals mind living in the Kingdom, he thinks that the human condition will get better and better until everyone on the planet is a Christian and then Jesus will come yet again to apparently judge the physical planet and then do something related to the eternal state.

So that's who we are dealing with.

close Thomas....I do not think Jesus physically returned in 70 ad....

The 70 ad [coming]......was a coming in judgement upon apostate Jerusalem.as Jesus promised that some who heard Him preach would still be alive to see the sign of Jesus in heaven.

Jesus is ruling from the heavenly Zion and Jerusalem right now.He rules in the midst of His enemies'

110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

psalm 110 is quoted 6 times in the NT. Can you show a verse that says Jesus reigns on the earth....????

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Believers have been translated...INTO the Kingdom.... the apostles taught that the kingdom has already begun...but it continues to grow...over all the earth, as the OT said it would:

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

this looks worldwide to me Thomas...explain how it is not.

 

[Iconoclast]

excedpt that it ceases to appear after chapter 4 in revelation!

Let's see if what you claim is so....

rev4

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

The 24 elders are not part of the church???

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

these redeemed saints are not part of...the church.every kindred, people ,nation...saved by the blood....and still not the church????

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These martyred saints are the church who was persecuted unto death on earth.....To you they are not the church????

Why is that...because you are not told....look...here is a part of the church?

I could go through the whole book this same way. The church is everywhere in the book.. Can you see this?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It was also in some Presbyterian churches. J. Vernon McGee was a Presbyterian! Scofield was a Congregationalist. However, Baptists bit hard!

yea they killed 2 of the last Congregational Churches here.
They wont get into the OPC though! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[OldRegular]

Let's see if what you claim is so....

rev4


The 24 elders are not part of the church???




these redeemed saints are not part of...the church.every kindred, people ,nation...saved by the blood....and still not the church????





These martyred saints are the church who was persecuted unto death on earth.....To you they are not the church????

Why is that...because you are not told....look...here is a part of the church?

I could go through the whole book this same way. The church is everywhere in the book.. Can you see this?
[/B]

Excellent points Icon, and I got the name right this time!

Some classic dispensationalists insist that the the Church is a mystery revealed only to the Apostle Paul. An even greater mystery, a real mystery, is the classic dispensationalist doctrine of the Church for which Jesus Christ died, which He calls His Chaste Bride.

 

[OldRegular]

yea they killed 2 of the last Congregational Churches here.
They wont get into the OPC though! :smilewinkgrin:

I don't believe they are in the PCA.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't believe they are in the PCA.

Up here the PCA has gotten liberal....so it could happen.

 

[OldRegular]

Up here the PCA has gotten liberal....so it could happen.

The PCA [Presbyterian Church in America} is totally different than the PCUSA. They separated from the PCUSA when they started ordaining women!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Just ONE comment

In another restricted thread we are being given a classic pre-mill teaching on the church that many have found fault with....we can talk about it here":


This error was posted and is believed in many places today.





The church is all throughout the NT. What do you say about it? We are not afraid to discuss this openly so we will not restrict it to any one point of view.:type:

I'm just going to respectfully make ONE comment here since the OP from my thread is presented as the "base post" in this thread. I am making this comment in light of the comment I made to Old Regular that I wouldn't "in effect" disrupt or disrespect any thread He originated with an opposing viewpoint to mine regardless of the fact that he has not extended to me the same courtesy(not an exact quote but that is the gist of what I said).
Well this thread is NOT originated by him but it is obviously directed in opposition to mine (or at least the subject matter of mine)so let me say this.....I am not going to argue the matter here either so Bro.Iconoclast...you don't have to worry about me coming over here and trying to disrupt your thread either. I have presented my position in the other thread so I don't need to argue about it either here or there. I see no point in it. The positions of all on the matter of the Rapture AND the opposing eschatological viewpoints are clear and open for all to see and have been argued many times over the years on this board and elsewhere. I see no point in arguing them further here. I'LL SEE YOU AFTER THE RAPTURE and we can talk about it then:smilewinkgrin:. Actually...somebody over there in my thread said something about being a PAN-Millenialist....I think for the mixed-up bunch of us in THIS forum that might indeed be the most sensible stance to take. It will INDEED all "pan out" in the end! Actually...I think IT WAS Old Regular that said that. Imagine that...we do agree on something. I will now retreat back to from whence I came from...enjoy your thread and try to have a nice day.:sleeping_2:

Bro.Greg:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm just going to respectfully make ONE comment here since the OP from my thread is presented as the "base post" in this thread. I am making this comment in light of the comment I made to Old Regular that I wouldn't "in effect" disrupt or disrespect any thread He originated with an opposing viewpoint to mine regardless of the fact that he has not extended to me the same courtesy(not an exact quote but that is the gist of what I said).
Well this thread is NOT originated by him but it is obviously directed in opposition to mine (or at least the subject matter of mine)so let me say this.....I am not going to argue the matter here either so Bro.Iconoclast...you don't have to worry about me coming over here and trying to disrupt your thread either. I have presented my position in the other thread so I don't need to argue about it either here or there. I see no point in it. The positions of all on the matter of the Rapture AND the opposing eschatological viewpoints are clear and open for all to see and have been argued many times over the years on this board and elsewhere. I see no point in arguing them further here. I'LL SEE YOU AFTER THE RAPTURE and we can talk about it then:smilewinkgrin:. Actually...somebody over there in my thread said something about being a PAN-Millenialist....I think for the mixed-up bunch of us in THIS forum that might indeed be the most sensible stance to take. It will INDEED all "pan out" in the end! Actually...I think IT WAS Old Regular that said that. Imagine that...we do agree on something. I will now retreat back to from whence I came from...enjoy your thread and try to have a nice day.

Bro.Greg

Brother Greg,

we do not have to....argue.... to discuss this topic. The blessed Hope of the return of the Lord is great and the hope of all christians.
You believe in salvation by the Blood of Jesus....you believe in the lord's return. You offer a classic premill view...which is the view I was first taught and learned....by books from Dallas seminary men and many tapes fron Chapel Library. I do not look at you as heretical or any such thing.

Many of us were taught the exact same thing. I believe i can still teach it accurately although I do not believe it is the most accurate view.

BrGr.....God's truth will stand and he will not tarry but come at the exact time He is supposed to. Your calendar or mine, or someone else's,,,He will come .

When we raise questions it is because we think that the scripture has always offered another way to see it that is more biblically consistent.Many in times past have held some of these ideas.

We can still differ on many things ....still be brothers and serve the Lord, and still try and edify one another.

I believe it is healthy to know each position well...be able to present each position and then explain what has lead you to hold one over another.
You can feel free to question any post I make and if it is important to you...you can derail or hijack a thread ...if you believe truth to be on the line:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: I will not take any unnecessary offence if I know you are sincere. I do not want to cause offense to you and I trust I have not.If I have I am sorry for that.