Anthropomorphic Language

[Rye]

Exodus 32:12-14 - Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The same author wrote in one place that God repented and in another place wrote that God never repents. There is either a contradiction or a misunderstanding on our part. We know it can’t be a contradiction so how do we make sense of this?

Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The simple answer is that the human nature can’t comprehend the Divine nature. God does not change His mind the same way that we change our mind. In other words, when we change our minds it is to adopt a different opinion or plan. When God “changes His mind” it is not to be understood the same way.

1 Samuel 8:10-18 - And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

1 Samuel 15:11 - It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

God could not have “changed His mind” if He knew ahead of time what was going to happen. He could have simply prevented it from happening in the first place.

Why does the Holy Spirit communicate to us this way? God intends to accomplish His purposes in time by communicating to His creatures in a way that we can comprehend.

God can’t be persuaded to be better than He is. When we engage in intercessory prayer, are shown how we grieve the Holy Spirit, this is how God persuades us to be better than we are.

 

[kyredneck]

by communicating to His creatures in a way that we can comprehend.

Spot on.

I've pondered how I would communicate to the bluegill out in our pond in a way a fish could understand.

 

[Jope]

"And if its meaning be clear, we are not to, give it some secondary reference, as if it were spoken figuratively." - Augustine, On Christian Doctrine Book 3, Ch. 11

Even Augustine acknowledges that scripture should be taken literally when it is self evident.

And Amillennial scholars admit that amillennialism first was given systematic expression in Augustine.

"First given systematic expression by St. Augustine in his famous City of God, amillennialismm..." - Kim Riddlebarger, A Case for Amillennialism, expanded ed., Baker Books, 2013, p. 40

 

[Deacon]

I made a note to myself about this just last week.

Divine Attribute: immutability, unchangeable, the concept that God is not subject to change in his nature, essence, attributes, consciousness or will. Freedom from change, being the same at all times, past, present and future. It distinguishes him from creation in that he does not grow, does not die, does not learn, cannot be molded, moved, or destroyed. He cannot get better, neither can he decay, demonstrating complete perfection, continuity and consistency. This attribute makes God perfectly trustworthy. Psalm 102:26-27; Isaiah.40:8; Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 1:11-12;

...in the words of Hans Küng: God’s immutability “must be understood as essential fidelity to himself in all his active vitality.” God’s being is indestructible, his plan and purpose are unalterable. His love is unfailing and inexorable. His grace is irreversible and persevering. This is the biblical picture of God’s unchangeableness. Bloesch, Donald G. 2006. God, the Almighty: Power, Wisdom, Holiness, Love. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

But then look at the problem as it's presented in 1 Samuel 15
There's a contradiction thrown right in our face for us to ponder!
It's not like it was an accident; the same Hebrew word, נִחָם nacham, is used in each verse (although in different forms).

“I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” ...
1 Samuel 15:11a (ESV 2016)

And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”
1 Samuel 15:29 (ESV 2016)

...And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.
1 Samuel 15:35b (ESV 2016)

Yet it wasn't God that changed; Saul changed.
God remained the same.

This touches upon the mystery of free will and how mankind interacts with the will of God.

Rob

 

[Van]

Exodus 32:12-14 - Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

The same author wrote in one place that God repented and in another place wrote that God never repents. There is either a contradiction or a misunderstanding on our part. We know it can’t be a contradiction so how do we make sense of this?

Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The simple answer is that the human nature can’t comprehend the Divine nature. God does not change His mind the same way that we change our mind. In other words, when we change our minds it is to adopt a different opinion or plan. When God “changes His mind” it is not to be understood the same way.

1 Samuel 8:10-18 - And Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

1 Samuel 15:11 - It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night.

God could not have “changed His mind” if He knew ahead of time what was going to happen. He could have simply prevented it from happening in the first place.

Why does the Holy Spirit communicate to us this way? God intends to accomplish His purposes in time by communicating to His creatures in a way that we can comprehend.

God can’t be persuaded to be better than He is. When we engage in intercessory prayer, are shown how we grieve the Holy Spirit, this is how God persuades us to be better than we are.

Hi Rye

Lots of concerns cited in your OP.

1) Does God repent? Does that mean change from mistaken, errant, or wrong view, to a right, inerrant, correct view? Nope, God does not "repent" in that way. Does God change His response in light of our actions? Yes. He makes conditional covenants. He says if you do this, I will do that, but if you do this other things, I will relent. In your example, God said "Let Me alone" that I may destroy them. But Moses, does not let God alone, He pleads with God, and so God relents.

2) One of the methods used by scripture nullifiers is to say even though it makes no sense to us, it is true because God's mind is above ours. Anytime someone explains a paradox using this device, we should recognize it as a ploy to push false doctrine.

3) Another method of making God's word to no effect is to say God would not do this or that because of God's attributes. The most common one of these is the claim God would not sent people to "hell" because God is love.

4) In your second example, God appointed a king because the people had rejected God. When Saul abandoned God's commands, God regretted appointing Saul. Thus God is responding to disobedience with punishment, but to obedience with mercy. And again, do not say God could not regret an action because of a disobedience response because He can know future circumstances. That is just another nullification ploy.

5) Yes, you are spot on. God communicates in a way we can understand, so when we do not understand, the problem is with our understanding, and not with scripture.

6) Your last sentence is difficult for me to grasp. Yes God cannot be persuaded to be better than He is, as He is perfect. Yes we can grief, quench or disregard the influence of our indwelt Helper. Yes, through our thoughtful prayers of confession and repentance, is how God works in us to become more like Christ, and more effective ambassadors of Christ.

 

[Rye]

Hello Van,

Thank you for sharing your concerns.

I would like to ask you two follow-up questions on your first point.

Does God change His response in light of our actions? Yes. He makes conditional covenants. He says if you do this, I will do that, but if you do this other things, I will relent. In your example, God said "Let Me alone" that I may destroy them. But Moses, does not let God alone, He pleads with God, and so God relents.

Does God not know what our actions will be until we make them?

If Moses did let God alone, would God have broken His promise to Abraham that He would multiply his descendants as the stars in the sky?

 

[Deacon]

Rye, your title "anthropomorphic language" was appropriate. that is certainly what we have here.
Kyredneck, I actually copied your response into my notes - it's a keeper!

Van, your points #2,#3 are a bit off - There are many places where Scripture is difficult to understand. In places where Scripture seems to "make no sense" (such as 1 Samuel 15), they might be worded that way intentionally to cause us to pause, ponder and consider. Particularly in 1 Samual 15, the passage seems to push us towards a closer examination of God's attributes.

But #1 is spot on. When we read in Scripture (Genesis 6:6-7; Exodus 32:14; 1 Samuel 15; Psalm 106:45; Jeremiah 18:8 and others) that God “repented” (AV) or "regretted" (ESV,NASB) it communicates a change in God's relationship to people caused by God's unchanging moral principles. God's moral compass remains steadily pointing towards himself.

The point to ponder was God did change his relationship with people, while still remaining holy, separate, and unchangeable.

Rob

 

[Jope]

Rye, your title "anthropomorphic language" was appropriate. that is certainly what we have here.
Kyredneck, I actually copied your response into my notes - it's a keeper!

Van, your points #2,#3 are a bit off - There are many places where Scripture is difficult to understand. In places where Scripture seems to "make no sense" (such as 1 Samuel 15), they might be worded that way intentionally to cause us to pause, ponder and consider. Particularly in 1 Samual 15, the passage seems to push us towards a closer examination of God's attributes.

But #1 is spot on. When we read in Scripture (Genesis 6:6-7; Exodus 32:14; 1 Samuel 15; Psalm 106:45; Jeremiah 18:8 and others) that God “repented” (AV) or "regretted" (ESV,NASB) it communicates a change in God's relationship to people caused by God's unchanging moral principles. God's moral compass remains steadily pointing towards himself.

The point to ponder was God did change his relationship with people, while still remaining holy, separate, and unchangeable.

Rob

If you're claiming that God can cancel or change His oft-repeated, oath-bound covenants (specifically the Abrahamic and Davidic, not the Sinaitic, since it is inherently conditional: "if ye...then I will"), I'll have to disagree.
What does that mean God will do to the Covenants He has made to the (New Testament, Christian) Church?

 

[Deacon]

If you're claiming that God can cancel or change His oft-repeated, oath-bound covenants (specifically the Abrahamic and Davidic, not the Sinaitic, since it is inherently conditional: "if ye...then I will"), I'll have to disagree.
What does that mean God will do to the Covenants He has made to the (New Testament, Christian) Church?

No, quite the opposite.
His commands, his decrees, his promises, those attributes that emanate from his character, don't change (Ps 119:89; Isa 40:8...)

But we also observe that God relationship with mankind does change; these changes are based upon those unchanging attributes (noted above).

So I think that 1 Samuel 15:10–11 speaks of a kind of relational change in virtue of God’s unchanging moral rules,
whereas the later verses in that chapter (1 Samuel 15:28–29) which say that God does not change, speak of his holy character, which is not subject to change.

Rob

​

 

[kyredneck]

So I think that 1 Samuel 15:10–11 speaks of a kind of relational change in virtue of God’s unchanging moral rules,
whereas the later verses in that chapter (1 Samuel 15:28–29) which say that God does not change, speak of his holy character, which is not subject to change.

Just as God rent the kingdom from the house of Saul and gave it to the house of David so He did with the house of apostate Judaism to the house of Christ. Therein lies a type/antitype that could be drawn out with many 'similarities'.

28 And Samuel said unto him, Jehovah hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou. 1 Sam 15

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

 

[Jope]

Just as God rent the kingdom from the house of Saul and gave it to the house of David so He did with the house of apostate Judaism to the house of Christ. Therein lies a type/antitype that could be drawn out with many 'similarities'.

28 And Samuel said unto him, Jehovah hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou. 1 Sam 15

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21

Yet even Paul says flesh and blood cannot accept or inherit or be given the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50-51).

Also, do you have a response as to how this stance of yours makes God's covenant-keeping ability (immutability) look whimsical? Does God really lack foresight and decided to cancel the promises based on disobedience, even when the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants already foresaw disobedience from the human party?

 

[Van]

Hello Van,

Thank you for sharing your concerns.

I would like to ask you two follow-up questions on your first point.

Does God not know what our actions will be until we make them?

If Moses did let God alone, would God have broken His promise to Abraham that He would multiply his descendants as the stars in the sky?

Thanks for your on topic discussion questions!!

There are at least two different views of God's attribute of omniscience, or being "all knowing." One view is God is "all knowing" about everything imaginable, including our future thoughts. The other view (the one I hold) is "inherit omniscience" or God knows all He has chosen to know, but can choose not to know other things, such as not remembering our sins forever. In John 21:17 Jesus is said to know all things, yet we know He did not know the time of His return. Thus 'all things" does not refer to everything imaginable, but only to the scope of things contextually in view. Thus, according to "inherit omniscience" God could have chosen not to know our future actions when He makes a conditional covenant.

As to your second question, I do not know the answer. God certainly knew Moses character and attributes, including his trust and dependence upon God's benevolence. However, I think it out of character for God to make a conditional covenant when He has predetermined the outcome. One thing is for certain, we should not read into scripture what appears to be a possibility, we should stick with what it says, and the logical necessities compelled by what it says.

 

[Van]

SNIP
Van, your points #2,#3 are a bit off - There are many places where Scripture is difficult to understand. In places where Scripture seems to "make no sense" (such as 1 Samuel 15), they might be worded that way intentionally to cause us to pause, ponder and consider. Particularly in 1 Samual 15, the passage seems to push us towards a closer examination of God's attributes.
SNIP

Rob

God inspired His word to communicate with us. To claim they make no sense on purpose to spur study and growth, seems dubious. Usually something has be lost in translation.

Claiming God would not do something scripture says He will do, because one or more of His attributes precludes the action is off the mark.

 

[Rye]

The other view (the one I hold) is "inherit omniscience" or God knows all He has chosen to know, but can choose not to know other things, such as not remembering our sins forever.

I'm imagining that would make God like an operating system. He can delete files that He no longer wants. And if God needed to remember something that He deleted, would He have to run the file recovery tool to get back that information? If so, it was never really deleted, the OS marked that block of data available to be written over. If that data truly was deleted, another source besides God would have to restore it.

Hebrews 8:12 - For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

I see this as another example of anthropomorphic language. This is simply a way for God to let us know He will no longer hold us accountable for past sins. It would be a contradiction to claim that God is all-knowing if there’s something that He no longer knows.

Jesus is said to know all things, yet we know He did not know the time of His return.

He was limited by His human nature and this was demonstrated by the fact that He got tired and hungry. He is omniscient by His divine nature and this was demonstrated by the fact that He predicted the crucifixion and who would betray Him in the process.

 

[Van]

I'm imagining that would make God like an operating system. He can delete files that He no longer wants. And if God needed to remember something that He deleted, would He have to run the file recovery tool to get back that information? If so, it was never really deleted, the OS marked that block of data available to be written over. If that data truly was deleted, another source besides God would have to restore it.

Hebrews 8:12 - For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

I see this as another example of anthropomorphic language. This is simply a way for God to let us know He will no longer hold us accountable for past sins. It would be a contradiction to claim that God is all-knowing if there’s something that He no longer knows.



He was limited by His human nature and this was demonstrated by the fact that He got tired and hungry. He is omniscient by His divine nature and this was demonstrated by the fact that He predicted the crucifixion and who would betray Him in the process.

Two points for you to consider:

1) Scripture says God will remember no more and you claim scripture does not actually mean what it says. Nullification on display using the tool of Anthropomorphic language.

2) Scripture says that Jesus knew all things, yet you say He didn't, so once again, scripture is nullified.

Beware of those traditions that make scripture to no effect.

 

[Rye]

Scripture says God will remember no more and you claim scripture does not actually mean what it says.

The problem that I think you will eventually run into is that there are other verses that speak of God having human characteristics such as…

Exodus 7:5 - And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Leviticus 20:6 - And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Deuteronomy 11:12 - A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

We know this has to be anthropomorphic language because…

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

If I affirm that God does not have a literal face, hands, eyes then I have to apply that same principle to God‘s mind, otherwise I am being inconsistent. He does have a “mind” in the sense that he possesses knowledge, however that knowledge is unchanging unlike the way our human minds function.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

 

[Van]

The problem that I think you will eventually run into is that there are other verses that speak of God having human characteristics such as…

Exodus 7:5 - And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Leviticus 20:6 - And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Deuteronomy 11:12 - A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.

We know this has to be anthropomorphic language because…

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

If I affirm that God does not have a literal face, hands, eyes then I have to apply that same principle to God‘s mind, otherwise I am being inconsistent. He does have a “mind” in the sense that he possesses knowledge, however that knowledge is unchanging unlike the way our human minds function.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Did anyone deny scripture uses anthropomorphic language? Nope. So are you changing the subject?

Did anyone say God's mind is like our human changeable mind? Nope. Neither of these two points are at issue.

The issue is to claim scripture does not mean what it says. Anthropomorphic language is used to "illustrate" a scriptural truth, which should not be nullified due to the illustration.
1) God influences circumstances to bring about His purpose and plan. The fact this is illustrated by saying He uses His "hand" does not nullify this underlying truth.

2) God opposes ungodly behavior, which is illustrated by saying He sets His "face" against that soul.

3) God knows the circumstances of the land in view, and this is illustrated by saying His "eyes" are upon it. The illustration does not invalidate the spiritual truth being presented.

Bottom line, there is no contradiction with saying God is all knowing about what He has chosen to know, and that God can choose not to know some things. The contradiction is "created" by your definition of "all knowing" as meaning "all knowing" of everything imaginable, rather than all knowing about whatever is contextually in view.

 

[kyredneck]

Scripture says God will remember no more

A scriptural example of God 'remembering no more':

After all the wickedness Israel had done after God had redeemed them out of the House of Bondage (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

Even in unbelief and disobedience they were as righteous as Christ in the eyes of God. (Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)"

 

[Rye]

Bottom line, there is no contradiction with saying God is all knowing about what He has chosen to know, and that God can choose not to know some things.

Here is why I am having difficulty with that assertion.

God made a promise to Abraham. Did he choose not to know how he was going to fulfill it until Moses interceded?

If God didn’t know that Moses was going to intercede, how can God be 100% certain that the children of Israel would not have faced His wrath? Would somebody else had to have stepped in to talk Him down?

How can ANY promise made by God hold water if it depends on somebody else to remind Him?

 

[Van]

Here is why I am having difficulty with that assertion.

God made a promise to Abraham. Did he choose not to know how he was going to fulfill it until Moses interceded?

If God didn’t know that Moses was going to intercede, how can God be 100% certain that the children of Israel would not have faced His wrath? Would somebody else had to have stepped in to talk Him down?

How can ANY promise made by God hold water if it depends on somebody else to remind Him?

Here is why I am having difficulty. You are asking me to tell you when God has chosen to know something or not to know something, and if I cannot, then the premise is wrong. My view is that is a non-sequitur. Moses did not "talk God down." Moses met the conditional requirement of God's covenant.

Not knowing what is not disclosed in scripture, does not invalidate what is disclosed in scripture. Jesus was said to be "all knowing" yet did not know everything. When God tested Abraham, God said "Now I know...." Thus, before Abraham raised his knife to kill his son, God did not know Abraham's complete faith.

I could go on, but you get the idea, the "everything imaginable" definition of omniscience is unbiblical. And it is by this bogus view you are claiming we should nullify scripture because the illustration uses anthropomorphic language. Again, my view is that is a non-sequitur.

Lastly, no plan or purpose of God can be thwarted by man. That is actual scripture. So your implied claim God must know everything to accomplish his purpose lacks validity.