Anyone else think the end is coming sooner than you think?

[Scott Downey]

It seems to me, this country has lost its moral foundation, much worse now than has ever been in our history.
I am wondering if God is slowly going to harvest His people to heaven, and let this country fill up the measure of its sins. I am no Dominionist, or kingdom Now person who claims the world is getting better and more christian before Christ can return (like Christians ruling and reigning NOW on the earth). It could be Christianity will mostly die out in a few decades more, and then the kingdom of the Beast, false prophet will appear where God begins pouring out serious tribulations on the world.

I am still convinced there will always be some believers on this earth right until the end when Christ returns as it says here, verse 15, basically those who remain alive who have not been killed by the Beast and his kingdom...


1 Thessalonians 4:14-16
New King James Version
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Yeshua1]

It seems to me, this country has lost its moral foundation, much worse now than has ever been in our history.
I am wondering if God is slowly going to harvest His people to heaven, and let this country fill up the measure of its sins. I am no Dominionist, or kingdom Now person who claims the world is getting better and more christian before Christ can return (like Christians ruling and reigning NOW on the earth). It could be Christianity will mostly die out in a few decades more, and then the kingdom of the Beast, false prophet will appear where God begins pouring out serious tribulations on the world.

I am still convinced there will always be some believers on this earth right until the end when Christ returns as it says here, verse 15, basically those who remain alive who have not been killed by the Beast and his kingdom...


1 Thessalonians 4:14-16
New King James Version
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Could explain why America not seeming to be around in end times!

 

[asterisktom]

It seems to me, this country has lost its moral foundation, much worse now than has ever been in our history.
I am wondering if God is slowly going to harvest His people to heaven, and let this country fill up the measure of its sins. I am no Dominionist, or kingdom Now person who claims the world is getting better and more christian before Christ can return (like Christians ruling and reigning NOW on the earth). It could be Christianity will mostly die out in a few decades more, and then the kingdom of the Beast, false prophet will appear where God begins pouring out serious tribulations on the world.

I am still convinced there will always be some believers on this earth right until the end when Christ returns as it says here, verse 15, basically those who remain alive who have not been killed by the Beast and his kingdom...


1 Thessalonians 4:14-16
New King James Version
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

I am sorry to say this but this is a good example how bad eschatology leads to ennervated and defeatist Christianity. No, we are definitely not in the last days. The last days happened centuries ago and they had a special relation to the Jews.

You mentioned about filling up the measure of sins. If you would look up that phrase and related ones - starting with Matt 23:32 you would see that that this also is in reference to the Old Covenant Jews.

God has a special purpose for us now in this very present Kingdom. Now, more than ever, Christians need to be salt and light and exert a lasting positive influence in our country and world.

If you truly believe that "It could be Christianity will mostly die out in a few decades more," then you certainly are not equipped to do your part. Much of our modern eschatology is pernicious and defeatist, the exact opposite of what we need in these very challenging times.

 

[Scott Downey]

N

I am sorry to say this but this is a good example how bad eschatology leads to ennervated and defeatist Christianity. No, we are definitely not in the last days. The last days happened centuries ago and they had a special relation to the Jews.

You mentioned about filling up the measure of sins. If you would look up that phrase and related ones - starting with Matt 23:32 you would see that that this also is in reference to the Old Covenant Jews.

God has a special purpose for us now in this very present Kingdom. Now, more than ever, Christians need to be salt and light and exert a lasting positive influence in our country and world.

If you truly believe that "It could be Christianity will mostly die out in a few decades more," then you certainly are not equipped to do your part. Much of our modern eschatology is pernicious and defeatist, the exact opposite of what we need in these very challenging times.

Nope, when Christ come HE wont find faith on the earth.
Luke 18:8
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

when He returns he fights and destroys the kingdom of the Beast and false prophet, who have done this...to all the people of the world.
BEFORE the return of Christ
The Christian survivors of this will be few

Revelation 13
New King James Version
The Beast from the Sea
13 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
The Beast from the Earth
11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives [f]those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has [g]the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

 

[Scott Downey]

That phrase is used by Paul in the NT scriptures, it is not just an OT concept.
The concept is God lets them, (them are the reprobate), fill up their sins to the 'breaking' point; where the cup of them is filled to the brim, and then wrath from God comes on them to the uttermost. And this kind of wrath is directed towards the whole bunch of them, suddenly as in a sudden destruction.

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

 

[asterisktom]

That phrase is used by Paul in the NT scriptures, it is not just an OT concept.
The concept is God lets them, (them are the reprobate), fill up their sins to the 'breaking' point; where the cup of them is filled to the brim, and then wrath from God comes on them to the uttermost. And this kind of wrath is directed towards the whole bunch of them, suddenly as in a sudden destruction.

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

I did not say that it was an "OT concept". I said that it concerned Old Covenant Jews. This continued still into the first century. The New Covenant did not begin with verse one of Matthew.

Your verses you cited make my point. This is about the Jews. How can it be about the Gentiles when they were "forbidding us (Paul, and the others) to speak to the Gentiles"? The phrase has nothing to do with America, not that America is not full of sins, but the phrase has a specific time-related significance.

 

[Scott Downey]

I did not say that it was an "OT concept". I said that it concerned Old Covenant Jews. This continued still into the first century. The New Covenant did not begin with verse one of Matthew.

Take a read here
When the Wicked Shall Have Filled Up the Measure of Their Sin, Wrath Will Come Upon Them to the Uttermost | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

The Phrase, "To Fill Up The Measure Of Their Sins"

 

[asterisktom]

Take a read here
When the Wicked Shall Have Filled Up the Measure of Their Sin, Wrath Will Come Upon Them to the Uttermost | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

The Phrase, "To Fill Up The Measure Of Their Sins"

I am quoting and reasoning from Scripture. You are directing me to some wordy theologian. If you have a point and know your point then show me from Scripture. Every ism and schism in the world has a bookshelf of amen corners to back them up.

 

[asterisktom]

N

Nope, when Christ come HE wont find faith on the earth.
Luke 18:8
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

πλὴν ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐλθὼν ἆρα εὑρήσει τὴν πίστιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς;

γῆς - land. Land of Israel. Check out the surrounding context. To whom was Jesus speaking?

 

[asterisktom]

For what it is worth I have a great respect for Jonathan Edwards, but he was wrong on his eschatology. In common with the majority of Reformers he had a blind spot of not understanding just who the Beast and Antichrist were. It is understandable that a group that was being persecuted by the RC would naturally see them in that role. But they, almost to a man, overlooked how apostate Jewry fit the description.

 

[Scott Downey]

πλὴν ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐλθὼν ἆρα εὑρήσει τὴν πίστιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς;

γῆς - land. Land of Israel. Check out the surrounding context. To whom was Jesus speaking?

yeah but it is not exclusive to Israel alone, your making that assumption. The 'wordy' theologian is right on there.
And I suppose you do not believe the Book of Revelation is for today then, your a Preterist? So none of it is relevant anymore for doctrine.

Spurgeon also is in agreement, very wordy, better not read it then.
https://www.spurgeongems.org/sermon/chs3043.pdf

 

[robustheologian]

It seems to me, this country has lost its moral foundation, much worse now than has ever been in our history.
I am wondering if God is slowly going to harvest His people to heaven, and let this country fill up the measure of its sins. I am no Dominionist, or kingdom Now person who claims the world is getting better and more christian before Christ can return (like Christians ruling and reigning NOW on the earth). It could be Christianity will mostly die out in a few decades more, and then the kingdom of the Beast, false prophet will appear where God begins pouring out serious tribulations on the world.

I am still convinced there will always be some believers on this earth right until the end when Christ returns as it says here, verse 15, basically those who remain alive who have not been killed by the Beast and his kingdom...


1 Thessalonians 4:14-16
New King James Version
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

No man knows the day nor hour....but the end we can be excited about is Trump's presidency.

 

[Alcott]

I don't see how I could think the end is coming sooner than I think. I wouldn't be thinking if I thought so.

 

[asterisktom]

yeah but it is not exclusive to Israel alone, your making that assumption. The 'wordy' theologian is right on there.
And I suppose you do not believe the Book of Revelation is for today then, your a Preterist? So none of it is relevant anymore for doctrine.

Spurgeon also is in agreement, very wordy, better not read it then.
https://www.spurgeongems.org/sermon/chs3043.pdf

yeah but it is not exclusive to Israel alone, your making that assumption. The 'wordy' theologian is right on there.
And I suppose you do not believe the Book of Revelation is for today then, your a Preterist? So none of it is relevant anymore for doctrine.

Revelation is certainly for today, just not in the way you assume. You seem unclear on what Preterism is.

Like I said, make your point with Scripture. Don't make theologians do your heavy lifting. By 'wordy"here I meant needlessly drawing out a discussion that could have been more focused.

 

[asterisktom]

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

Yes, do the math here. It points to Nero. Some retain the grammatical variant "Neron" (Just as we have Plato and Platon). And, interestingly, the some Greek manuscripts have 616, which is due to that variant reading, "Neron".

The "wisdom" needed and the purpose for Johns cryptic approach is that Nero was very much in power in the time of writing. Speaking truth to power was an even more deadly venture back then than it is now. So John communicates to his Hebrew readership in a way that he knows they would understand but the Romans, for the most part, would not.

 

[Deacon]

Anyone else think the end is coming sooner than you think?

Does anyone else think that the return of Christ on earth can’t come soon enough?

Rob