Apostasy and Modern English Bible Versions

If you've chosen old Bibles over new, your reasoning has a few flaws.

1.) God did not retire in 1560, 1611, or at any other time. He still oversees His word as he's always done, in the languages current for the time. And yes, He still oversees all languages also.

2.) The same Almighty God who has preserved such things as the multitudes of Assyrian and Egyptian writings found over the last 200 years could have just-as-easily preserved the original writings of His own words. However, He has apparently chosen not to. God does nothing without a reason or a purpose. Have you considered what His reason/purpose is for His not preserving the actual originals?

3.) Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek do not translate exactly into English and other languages. There are very few people on earth today who can read all three of those languages with full clarity. Therefore, most of us are NOT reading God's exact words, as He didn't speak them in modern languages.

4.) Without the originals, you're just GUESSING at which manuscripts are REALLY closest to the originals. Dean John Burgon is a fave poster-boy for the KJVO set; they love to point to his scathing review denouncing the work of Westcott& Hort. But they AVOID mentioning his equally-scathing review of the Textus Receptus, where he says it needed a thorough revision, citing 120 places in Matthew alone he believed needed corrected.

5.) Every Christian believes God has preserved His word. That's not the REAL issue. That issue is that some people insist that in English he's passed them down to us in ONLY ONE VERSION. This is a totally-nonScriptural view, and is a modern one; the current false doctrine began in 1930 with a book written by a SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST official. In the days of King James, the British had several Bible versions available, and many of them used all of them.

6.) A cardinal fact against the "exact word" theory: NO TWO MANUSCRIPTS ARE EXACTLY ALIKE! This fact alone destroys the "exact word" theory.

 

No guess work involved...God seen fit to show us in Acts that the Antiochan MSS are the word of God..

Thank God!!

 

In reading your website, I see several problems. First, you have "AV 1611" printed in large letters, but your Scriptural quotes appear to have come from the 1769 Blayney's edition of the KJV. I have two repro AV 1611s as well as the 1769, so I can easily check. No matter how many times the KJVOs holler, "They're the same Bible", SIMPLE READING AND COMMON SENSE PROVES THEY ARE NOT!

Next, you've subscribed to the utterly-false "Church Age" doctrine. Have you ever bothered to study just where this bunk came from? It originated with the Ultra Dispensationalist "Plymouth Brethren" of the 1830s, led by one John Nelson Darby, a lawyer/Anglican priest, who invented his own sect based upon his private(and incorrect) interpretation of Scripture. It was pushed in the USA by a PROVEN CHARLATAN, William Branham. He was a charlatan who made Jim Bakker appear to be a naughty 2-yr-old by comparison. He claimed to be under the Lord's protection, but he apparently failed to pay his premium in 1965, as he was killed by a drunk driver. And history shows the religious and moral conduct of Europe and the Americas did NOT match the seven modules of the "Church age". I can explain in detail if necessary.

Next, you've fallen for the "party-line" KJVO myth. The current version was started in 1930 by a book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, by Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson, a SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST preacher/teacher/official. That book was heavily copied by one J.J.Ray, who in 1955 published God Wrote Only One Bible. Both Wilkinson and ray were heavily copied by Dr.D.O.Fuller, who in 1970 published Which Bible? Fuller even went so far as to attempt to conceal Wilkinson's cult affiliation. From these three books, a whole set of false doctrines have arisen, and almost all KJVOs, including you, follow that party line whether you realize it or not. How a BAPTIST can follow a set of false doctrines originated by a cult official and spread by two less-than-honest authors would be beyond me...if I didn't know how powerful Satan is, and that without GOD, we have no chance against him. He has won a victory in successfully attacking God's word through the KJVO myth. However, more & more IFBs are waking up to the falsehood of KJVO, and abandonong it.

Here's a fact that's hard for the KJVO to swallow...KJVO HAS ABSOLUTELY *NO* SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT! Please take time to do as you suggested earlier...Read each "preservation" scripture very carefully, with prayer and look for ANYTHING that points to the KJVO myth. This forum is full of facts disproving the KJVO myth, so I won't repeat them now, but I will say it loud and clear, without hesitation nor reservation...THE KJVO MYTH IS A SET OF UTTERLY-FALSE DOCTRINES!

For years, I've believed that one false doctrine opens the door for others, and you're a case in point. While I believe you are saved, I see the devil has fooled you. I don't know which false doctrine came first for you...KJVO or Church Age...but I know each of'em is phony as a Clinton dollar and has no place in Baptist worship. I encourage you to do some DEEP RESEARCH as to the VERACITY of both these doctrines.

A word about Dispensationalism...While I(and most other Baptists) believe in some of its tenets, such as the literal fulfillment of prophecy, I do NOT believe much of the Ultras' stuff such as a separate salvation for the Jews.

But again, I ask you to STUDY THE FACTS about KJVO and Church Age, beginning with the cult affiliations and dishonesty of the inventors of BOTH these myths.

 

Anti_Alexandrian: No guess work involved...God seen fit to show us in Acts that the Antiochan MSS are the word of God..

Thank God!!

Yes, thank God that He allowed the WHOLE book of Acts to become Scripture, instead of only the parts you like. Try reading it a little closer to find out a little more about the Jews(and Christians) of Antioch.

Now, YOU'RE guessing again.

 

Your position on Bible translation is not based on Scripture if you misapply the verses concerning preservation exclusively to the translating of Church of England scholars in 1611. All the verses you cite would apply just as much to the 1537 Matthew's Bible, the 1560 Geneva Bible, the 1833 revision of the KJV by Noah Webster, the 1842 revision of the KJV by doctrinally-sound Baptists, the NKJV, the MKJV,
the KJ21 as they would to the KJV.

The Baptist Confession of faith you quoted makes the preserved Scriptures in the original languages (Hebrew and Greek) the authentical
scriptures that should be used as the standard
for the making and evaluating of all translations.
Are you saying that you agree with that view?

 

OK then which KJV is perfect:

(Lev 26:40) If they shall confesse the iniquitie of their fathers, with their trespasse which they trespassed against me, and that also they haue walked contrary vnto me: 1611KJV

Or

(Lev 26:40) If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 1769 KJV


(2Ti 4:13) The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou commest, bring with thee, but especially the parchments. 1611 KJV

Or

(2Ti 4:13) The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. 1769KJV

Things that are different are not the same!

Did God allow several errors in the 1611 KJV? Remember that the Books of the Apocrypha are in the 1611KJV and the translators referenced these books by adding marginal notes in the OT and NT.

If the KJV is to be the end all be all of bibles then why did the 1611 KJV fail the test?

Don’t spin just answer. You made the perfection claim and now you are backed into a corner by the good ol’ 1611 KJV. I love the 1611 KJV for many reasons mainly because it shines a light on the deceptions of KJVOism.

Thanks,

 

Psalm 145:3 "The modern English Bible versions are translated
from a kind of text that comes from the heretical theories
of modern textual criticism."

Notice how this statement cleverly disguises a phenomona
i like to call "KJV Translator Modern Textual Criticism".

Yep, the translators of the KJV performed Textual Criticism,
picking among their available source texts the one they thought
the best.

Thank you all for the inspirations you have given. I was
feeling like I had neglected my exercises. But if JUMPING
TO CONCLUSIONS is as popular as I see here, I can do that
exercise

So Brother Psalm 145:3, how do you justify the variance of
the multiple sources of the Old Testament AS DOCUMENTED IN
THE KJV1611? It isn't like they had one exclusive source.
The translators of the KJV performed textual criticism.

So Brother Psalm 145:3, how do you justify the variance of
the multiple Greek sources of the New Testament AS DOCUMENTED IN
THE KJV1611? It isn't like they had one exclusive source.
The translators of the KJV performed textual criticism.

 

Any edition will do just fine.

And you equate those with such Alexandrian atrocities like:
Denying the incarnation(1 st Tim 3:16).

Claiming that Jesus was a created god(John 1:18).

And a host of others?

And that affects the text HOW?

Keep in mind the Alexandrian forgeries had the Apocryphal books mingled in their underlying texts;and was/is considered holy writ by...well ,you know who...

THANK God the KJB translators had enough discernment and good sense to ditch the Alexandrian forgeries!!

What "test?"


It passes the test for me because it's textual background can be found in Scripture(Acts).

 

Anti-Alexandrian: //And you equate those with such Alexandrian atrocities like:
Denying the incarnation(1 st Tim 3:16).

//Claiming that Jesus was a created god(John 1:18).

//And a host of others?//

As usual, you cite non-existant & non-provable 'problems'
which we have disproved again and again in this Forum.

1Ti 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
And without controuersie, great is the mysterie
of godlinesse: God was manifest in the flesh,
iustified in the Spirit, seene of Angels,
preached vnto the Gentiles, beleeued on in the
world, receiued vp into glory.

STRONG'S defines the word translated
as 'manifest' as:

G5319
φανερόω
phaneroō
fan-er-o'-o
From G5318; to render apparent (literally or
figuratively): - appear, manifestly declare,
(make) manifest (forth), shew (self).

IMHO the KJV1611 Edition is Denying the Incarnation in this verse
with the weak term "manifest".

 

David J: "I love the 1611 KJV for many reasons mainly because it shines a light on the deceptions of KJVOism."

Amen, Brother David J - preach it!

 

heretical theories stemming from Modernism



God seen fit to show us in Acts that the Antiochan MSS are the word of God



Alexandrian atrocities



Claiming that Jesus was a created god(John 1:18).



the Alexandrian forgeries



Why laugh? Well, because you gotta.

 

Why then are many Old Testament quotations in the KJV New Testament (any edition/revision) not word for word the same?

For example:

Amos 9
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Acts 15
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Were the KJV translators apostates seing that they lost some words going from the Old to the New Testament such as "and close up the breaches thereof"?

Surely God did not change His mind and has decided not to "close up the breaches " now?

Or in the words of Paul, "God forbid".


HankD

 

Psalm 145 3: I did not mention the KJV in my first post.

But you have it emblazoned upon the home page of your website in big, bold letters. Once you came to this forum, were you ashamed of it and so didn't mention it?


The point I was trying to make is that God preserved His words through copies of the originals. Those perfect copies of His words were never lost, never buried in the sands of Egypt, nor were those words hidden in a false religious monastery for many years until somebody happened to find them.

What's your PROOF? Not one older English BV reads like any other, and no two manuscripts containing the same books of Scripture match exactly.

It doesn't matter what new manuscript evidence is found. The only people that take any stock in new manuscript evidence are those who do not believe we already have those words.

But with some of those non-matching ms being known for hundreds of years, you're just GUESSING.

Let me ask you this: Can you gather together a definite number of words today and proclaim with all your heart that those are ALL of the words of Scripture that were given by inspiration of God? If not, then you don't believe your Bible is absolutely inerrant.

Sure...why not?

After all, the four Gospels, which are narrations of the same events, are FAR more different from each other, even when they are found in the same "family" of mss. Do YOU believe all 4 gospels, or have you chosen just ONE as "official"?

I'm glad I have an absolutely inerrant Bible. If you think I'm a heretic for believing my Bible is inerrant, then I believe you need to be evangelized.

I'm glad I have several versions of the absolutely inerrant Bible, as God has allowed me to have and to use more of the material He has made available for us.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

In keeping with the subject of this thread, I believe you MEANT to post Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

We must apply this verse according to reality...Jesus said millions of words that were not recorded on earth. Every day He obtained his meals or said things pertaining to His carpentry work. He preached and performed miracles in many towns w/o one word of His during these times being found in Scripture. When the woman caught in adultery was brought before Him, He wrote things in the dust that were not recorded. However, EVERY WORD HE CHOSE TO APPEAR IN SCRIPTURE IS IN SCRIPTURE. That's reality. Jesus picked-n-chose from among His own words what He wanted as Scripture. What we have, whether or not you agree with it or not, is by HIS choice. He is The Word, and The Word is God.

A word about the law...Clearly, Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial parts of the law, and they no longer apply to anyone,but they're still on "the books". An analogy is the law requiring all USA males to register with Selective Service upon reaching age 18. That law doesn't apply to me due to age and prior service, but it's still on the books. God wants us to know the history of the law , and how it applied to old Israel. He wants us to know we could never fulfill it perfectly, and that He has given us a way to avoid the penalty for breaking His law by believing in His Son Jesus, and that Jesus, who has never broken the least statute of God's law, bore the penalty in our behalf, the penalty WE deserve for OUR breaking of that law.

Now, Sir...I notice you've avoided mentioning the "Church Age" false doctrine whatsoever. Are you ashamed of THAT one, too?

 

The scriptural analogy is that of a widow who has remarried (Romans 7:1-6).

And personally, I am not ashamed to say that I hold to the "false doctrine" of the Church age, although I prefer to call the time inbetween the First and Second Comings of Jesus Christ the "Age of Grace".

HankD

 

These are what i'm calling "the church age":

Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks
against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven
him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil,
the harvest is the end of the age,
and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned
in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age.
The angels will come forth, separate the
wicked from among the just,

Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives,
the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
"Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"

Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have
commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,
even to the end of the age." Amen.

Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now
in this time--houses and brothers and sisters
and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."

Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age
marry and are given in marriage.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry
nor are given in marriage;

1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the
disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish
the wisdom of this world?

1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who
are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age,
nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers ofthis age knew;
for had they known, they would not have crucified
the Lord of glory.


1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool
that he may become wise.

2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded,
who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel
of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine on them.

Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age,
according to the will of our God and Father,

Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might
and dominion, and every name that is named,
not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age
not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain
riches but in the living God, who gives us
richly all things to enjoy.

Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and
worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly in the present age,


Gentile Age:

Luke 21:24 (nKJV):
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword,
and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This excerpt from the Mount Olivet Discourse
parallels Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
All are the MOD speaking of Jesus, when
He predicted what would happen in the future.
----------------------------------------------------------

To call "the church age" a heresy, one must define another
church age than this definition from the Bible.

 

Psalm 145 3: Let's please get back on the topic at hand. When I posted something about the KJV in another thread, I was quickly reminded that the KJV is not the topic and I was charged with misuse of Psalm 12.

If you said Psalm 12:6-7 is about God's preserving His word, you DID misuse it, parroting the line of the "party-line" KJVOs. This idea was proposed in SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson's 1930 book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, and has been part of the KJVO myth ever since.

If you've ever read the AV 1611 which you headline at your website, you woulda seen the translators' marginal note for Ps. 12:7, to-wit..."Heb.him, I. euery one of them" And the Geneva Bible, the AV's immediate predecessor, reads"him" at V7.

What makes this all so funny as well as FALSE is the fact that there are numerous clear "preservation" verses, making the deliberate twisting of Ps. 12:6-7 unnecessary.


The person who started that thread claimed to like the notes in the NET Bible. The notes in the NET Bible are a very dangerous deception of Satan. This is serious spiritual warfare, so I warned about that snare of the devil in the NET notes, if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.

Like most KJVO ideas, that one is pure guesswork also.

Inspiration of Scripture and preservation of Scripture are like two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.

No true Baptist believes differently.

These words are given by inspiration of God: "The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations" (Psalm 33:11).

And not once does He limit Himself to any one version.

If those words are inspired Scripture, then God has kept His promise to preserve all of His words, because I'm sitting here reading them in 2005 in the year of our Lord. God has promised that His words would be available to all generations. If those words were lost for several hundreds of years, then God's promise has failed.

Then you must go back a lot further than 1611. England, and English had been in existence long before then.

The modern English versions, such as NET, NIV, NASB, ESV and others are based on manuscripts that were lost or hidden for many generations. If God's words were lost, who lost them? God promised to keep them available to all generations. It is God who does the keeping.

And no KJVO considers the fact that it coulda been GOD who caused those mss to be found, and who had preserved them all that time, as He did the forgotten book found in the temple during Josiah's reign.

Psalm 33:11 promises the verbal preservation of Scripture. God cannot lie.

But again...WHERE DOES GOD LIMIT HIMSELF TO JUST ONE VERSION?

You might think that is a very simplistic approach, you might think I'm ignorant or unlearned, but I don't care, I simply believe what God has plainly said.

Once again...WHERE DOES GOD LIMIT HIMSELF TO JUST ONE VERSION?


I don't have to know a word of Hebrew or Greek to understand what is Scripture, and I don't need a bunch of modern scholars to tell me what Scripture is.

So you're just guessing that one set of translators was absolutely right.


Proper translations of Scripture into any language is the inspired Word of God in that language. In English, the KJV is the inspired Word of God, it has produced genuine spiritual results for hundreds of years.

And the Latin Vulgate was the Bible used by English for over a thousand years before, even though it's not in English.

And God didn't retire in 1611. He goes right on providing His word in the current languages, including English.

Psalms 100:5 For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his TRUTH endureth to all generations.

THY WORD IS TRUTH. Through faith we understand. Amen.

Again, where is there ANY Scriptural support for the KJVO myth? While you "talk up " the AV 1611 on your site, you quote verses from later editions. With such gainsay, no wonder most of us don't believe much of what a KJVO has to say.

And again, you haven't said a word about the false Branhamite "Church Age" doctrine you support. Just goes to show that when one believes ONE false doctrine, he opens the door for others.

NOW...Can you support either the "seven church ages" or KJVO by Scripture? If not, then as a Christian, you must discard them both.

I'm not talking about the preservation of Scripture. I, and every other Baptist here believes God has preserved His word. BUT WE BELIEVE GOD PRESENTS HIS WORD AS HE CHOOSES, and is NOT limited to just one version by man's guesswork. And we know Jesus had John write letters to seven churches in existence at the time...BUT WHERE IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURE SAYING THE CHURCH WOULD BE BROKEN DOWN INTO SEVEN TIME PERIODS THOSE CHURCHES REPRESENT? Both those false doctrines are MAN-MADE ADDITIONS TO GOD'S WORD, and should be avoided by every Christian. Please search the Scriptures yourself for the least amount of support for either of those doctrines, and in Christian honesty admit someone taught you incorrectly if you cannot find any such Scripture. I'm not trying to be a schlock; I'm trying to open your eyes to two of the more insidious false doctrines making their rounds today.

 

Psalm 145:3: "Let's please get back on the topic at hand."

OK by me. The topic at hand is NOT the inspiration and
preservation of the written word of God NOR the preservation
of the living word of God. The topic is allegedly:
"Apostasy and Modern English Bible Versions". I suppose some
think that modern day apostasy is fostered by the modern
Bible Versions? Make a point, if you have one to make.

In the lead-in post Psalm 145:3 says: "Because God's promises cannot fail! I do not need to see the originals to be sure we have perfect copies. God cannot lie."

However, God can be misunderstood.
"I don't have to the originals to be sure we have perfect copies"
is a true statement. It is true because i have the Holman
Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) of 2003. The HCSB is the
perfect copy of what God wants us to know, preserved in the
very language that I speak. I'm old enough that i learned a
20th century English, but i'm up on language changes and use
today a 21st century English. I don't think God limits Himself
to a 17th Century English (KJV1611) NOR does God limit
Himself to an 18th Century English (KJV1769). God is Alive, even
in the 21st century. God's Written Word should be alive,
perfect, and preserved in the 21st Century were we live.
God didn't die in 1611 and God didn't quit preserving His
written word in 1769. God is one the throne and still lives.

I'd write more, but i need to go fetch a compass