Are 7th Day Adventists a cult?

[DHK]

Craig,
It is easy to derail this thread by turning it into one on eschatology, attacking variuos Baptist positons, etc. But that won't work. People here are not that naive.
Why not answer the accusations laid against the false teaching of the false prophet of Ellen G. White. Explain her damnable teaching of the Investigative Judgement. Expain why the SDA's believe that the scapegoat in the Day of Atonement is actually Satan bearing the burden of the sin going off into the wilderness. Is this really what you believe. Do you really believe that Satan atoned for our sins and not Jesus??
DHK

 

[Russ Kelly]

Craig
I got involved in the SDA church from 1973 to 1981 because of what I (now) consider the Southern Baptists' wrong understanding of the Ten Commandments as comprising the unchangeable eternal moral law of God.

My logic: "If the TC are trutly the unchangeable eternal moral law of God," then I need to be worshipping on the Sabbath insted of Sunday."

While attending an evangelistic campaign the evangelist lied to me about almost every question I asked him. I discovered this later.

My next mistake was telling myself that, "If I was so wrong about the Sabbath, perhaps I have been wrong about all of these other strange doctrines also." You'd be surprised how many converts take this route.

Joining a reform wing of SDAs, I never asccepted EG White and the Investigative Judgment. When a great purge of reformists was made in the late 1970s and early 1980s, I left also.

I still think that the SBC FAith and Message is too legalistic concerning Sunday replacing Sabbath.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> That is not the same thing as extra-biblical teachings like the Investigative Judgment, or teaching salvation by works, or teaching that someone's writings (Ellen White) is equal to the Bible.

Marcia,

There are no false doctrines in the Bible, and, therefore, ALL false doctrines are extra-Biblical teachings. And all false doctrines cause divisions in the Body of Christ. It is fundamentally wrong to say that false doctrines that are taught in Baptist churches are merely incorrect doctrines and that false doctrines that are taught in other churches are heresies. A false doctrine is a false doctrine, and the Baptist churches are full of them as I proved in the partial list of conflicting doctrines that I posted. The doctrine of the Investigative Judgment can be traced back to the year in which it was first invented, and so can the pre-trib doctrine and many other doctrines taught as Biblical truths in Baptist churches today. And if you believe that Ellen G. White was a false prophet (as do I), take a look at the book, The Rod, Will God Spare It? by J. D. Faust. This book is ardently defended by Baptist member Lacy Evans on this message board. Also, check out the teachings of Zane Hodges and the Grace Evangelical Society. The Grace Evangelical Society is radically non-Christian, but some prominent Baptist writers are endorsing its non-Christian teachings. </font>[/QUOTE]I think one can disagree with pre-trib without calling it a false doctrine. I know the scriptures pre-tribbers use to support it. Thsi does not mean they are right, but they are not going outside the Bible to support it. I do not see how it is worse than the Investigative Judgement -- I mean, actually saying the specific year that Jesus went into a heavenly sanctuary?

Also, the Investigative Judgment leads to a salvation by works -- the pre-trib rapture is not a salvation by works but a belief about endtimes.

Whatever Faust says or whatever Baptist on the BB may believe it does not make it official church doctrine! I have never heard of the book. Just because someone writes a book and some Baptists believe it does NOT make it doctrine! I know Christians who actually have occult beliefs, but that does not mean that it is a Christian belief!

 

[Dewey Maggard]

Anyone who has studied their Scriptures,know very well there is absolutely no Biblical support to an Investigative Judgement taught by Seventh-day Adventists. Ask a SDA to explain to you where in the Bible this doctrine comes from.
Sincerely Dewey

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by DHK:
Craig,
It is easy to derail this thread by turning it into one on eschatology, attacking variuos Baptist positons, etc. But that won't work. People here are not that naive.
Why not answer the accusations laid against the false teaching of the false prophet of Ellen G. White. Explain her damnable teaching of the Investigative Judgement. Expain why the SDA's believe that the scapegoat in the Day of Atonement is actually Satan bearing the burden of the sin going off into the wilderness. Is this really what you believe. Do you really believe that Satan atoned for our sins and not Jesus??
DHK

Dear Sir,

Please read my posts and you will see for yourself that I wrote that the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a false doctrine. As I have posted, I believe that the SDA’s have some very serious doctrinal problems, but many Baptist denominations do too. Am I defending the errors of the SDA? NO! I am saying that we need to be tolerant of that denomination in view of the fact that some our own Baptist denominations also have some very serious doctrinal problems.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I know Christians who actually have occult beliefs, but that does not mean that it is a Christian belief!

Thank you! That is exactly my point about the SDA Church.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
Craig
I got involved in the SDA church from 1973 to 1981 because of what I (now) consider the Southern Baptists' wrong understanding of the Ten Commandments as comprising the unchangeable eternal moral law of God.

My logic: "If the TC are trutly the unchangeable eternal moral law of God," then I need to be worshipping on the Sabbath insted of Sunday."

While attending an evangelistic campaign the evangelist lied to me about almost every question I asked him. I discovered this later.

My next mistake was telling myself that, "If I was so wrong about the Sabbath, perhaps I have been wrong about all of these other strange doctrines also." You'd be surprised how many converts take this route.

Joining a reform wing of SDAs, I never asccepted EG White and the Investigative Judgment. When a great purge of reformists was made in the late 1970s and early 1980s, I left also.

I still think that the SBC FAith and Message is too legalistic concerning Sunday replacing Sabbath.

Russ,

Thank you for sharing this with us. I agree with you regarding the Ten Commandments.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Dear Sir,

Please read my posts and you will see for yourself that I wrote that the Doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a false doctrine. As I have posted, I believe that the SDA’s have some very serious doctrinal problems, but many Baptist denominations do too. Am I defending the errors of the SDA? NO! I am saying that we need to be tolerant of that denomination in view of the fact that some our own Baptist denominations also have some very serious doctrinal problems.

I don't know of any Baptist church that has error as serious as the SDA's "Investigative Judgement." If they did, they wouldn't be Baptist, would they?
I am an IFB. I am not a denominational baptist. So I will only speak for the doctrines of my church, which as far as I know, are very similar to other IFB churches.
There are no heresies in our churches. There are some differences among brethren in finer points of doctrine that in the end don't make any difference in our fellowship with each other. Our church is as separated as they come.
We believe in eccesiastical separation.
--separation from all new evangelical, charismatic, ecumenical, and liberal churches, as well as all cults.
The Bible says: "How can two walk together lest they be agreed." The obvious answer is--they cannot.

The SDA church is full of radical and heretical doctrines, which has been pointed out to you, and cannot be reconciled with:
1. orthodox Christianity.
2. the doctrine of soteriology or salvation.
3. the plain teaching of the Bible.

SDA doctrine falls or stands on one woman: Ellen G. White, a false prophet. She made many prophecies which never came true. The Bible condemns this. It also condemns women preachers, and commands that women should not have authority over a man, nor should teach a man. She was (and thus her teachings are) totally out of place.

Because their doctrine is founded on Ellen G. White, one can only assume that for 1700 years before that--from the time of the Apostles to the time of White, all these people were lost, for they did not have the truth revealed to White. What a shame!

SDA is a works religion. Biblical Christianity teaches that one is saved by grace through faith. I ask again: Why would you believe that Satan would make an atonement for your sin, and not Jesus? Why is the scapegoat on the Day of Atonement, bearing the burden of sin, Satan?
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

I ask again: Why would you believe that Satan would make an atonement for your sin, and not Jesus? Why is the scapegoat on the Day of Atonement, bearing the burden of sin, Satan?

How many times do I have to tell you that I do not believe these things?

IFB Churches are typically pastored by men who have less education and knowledge of the Bible than does my two-year-old grandson, and yet they are hyper-critical of everyone who does not conform to their pre-school knowledge of Biblical theology. They have never even bothered to read the Bible, but are quite content to read only translations of it, and have never darkened the door of a University, and yet they believe that they alone have all the answers and all the truth. My reply to them is, “Hogwash!”

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I ask again: Why would you believe that Satan would make an atonement for your sin, and not Jesus? Why is the scapegoat on the Day of Atonement, bearing the burden of sin, Satan?

How many times do I have to tell you that I do not believe these things?

IFB Churches are typically pastored by men who have less education and knowledge of the Bible than does my two-year-old grandson, and yet they are hyper-critical of everyone who does not conform to their pre-school knowledge of Biblical theology. They have never even bothered to read the Bible, but are quite content to read only translations of it, and have never darkened the door of a University, and yet they believe that they alone have all the answers and all the truth. My reply to them is, “Hogwash!” </font>[/QUOTE]I would go as far as to say that any church teaching KJVO, that "the Word" is the 1611 KJV is as bad as "Investagative Judgement" Consider the many anti KJVO threads in the version forum and you will see plenty of evidence as to why this is a heretical doctrine of some Baptist churches.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ben W:

I would go as far as to say that any church teaching KJVO, that "the Word" is the 1611 KJV is as bad as "Investagative Judgement" Consider the many anti KJVO threads in the version forum and you will see plenty of evidence as to why this is a heretical doctrine of some Baptist churches. [/QUOTE]
Have you visited the various threads on the versions forum. The remark that you have just made, white-washing most Baptist churches as KJVO is slander. They are a small minority among Baptists. So stop branding us with another cult (at least those of the Ruckmanite type).

If, as you say, you have seen the evidence yourself, why do you even bring it up?

Again, the Investigative Judgement doctrine is one of the most heretical and dangerous doctrines ever to be promosted by a cult. It does away with the atonement of Christ, that Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and thus does away with our very salvation.
SDA is based on a works salvation, not salvation by grace through faith. Even to be associated with this cult is unbiblical.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ben W:


IFB Churches are typically pastored by men who have less education and knowledge of the Bible than does my two-year-old grandson, and yet they are hyper-critical of everyone who does not conform to their pre-school knowledge of Biblical theology. They have never even bothered to read the Bible, but are quite content to read only translations of it, and have never darkened the door of a University, and yet they believe that they alone have all the answers and all the truth. My reply to them is, “Hogwash!”

More slander. Are you going to tell Dr. Bob that his education is equivalent to your two year old grandson? There are plenty of people posting on this board that have been posting (by my observation) over your head. Your arguments in many forums have been defeated. Your attitude here is very very arrogant.
You are content to demean the pastors posting here (representative of many Baptist churches) illiterate. Shame on you!!
Why don't you post your educational backround?

Many of the pastors here have Ph.d's and D.D's, D.Div's, as well as others having Masters degrees. But you don't respect any of that??
You are content to slander and whitewash all baptists as illiterate two yearolds.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ben W:
I have looked into the SDA quite alot, and what I surmise is that they are a group that has had some incorrect teachings in the past yet have begun to drop those things and ratify mainstream christianity.

They most certainley are Trinitarian, yet in the past there was a teaching that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, this has scince been dropped. They are becoming more willing to fellowship with other christians, yet what concerns me is their Soul Sleep of the Dead doctrine and the Doctrine that Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary in 1844.

It is on the basis of those two things that I am not reccomending them.

Maybe you should ask your friend what he thinks of the Seventh Day Baptist Church, a group that does meet on Saturday, yet not for the same reasons as the SDA.

http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/

In the Other Religions Forum we have had two SDA's that have regularly posted.
One of them is a moderate who believes in both the trinity and in the deity of Christ, and yet at the same time will still defend many of the teachings of Ellen G. White including the Investigative Judgement.

The other is very radical in her beliefs and calls herself a Historic SDA. She does not believe in the trinity, nor does she believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. She holds some other very strange beliefs as well. Though they both be SDAs, their posts are as night and day.

Nevertheless, because of the basic error that is still held by the SDA the Bible commands:

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

By this command alone we are to avoid such people or groupls that have doctrine contrary to the Bible. Avoid the SDA movement at all cost.
DHK

 

[Russ Kelly]

Ben W.
If you read this entire thread, you will find that I disagree with your statement that the present SDA church has dropped many of its past teachings. As long as their signs display three angels (of Rev 14), and as long as their connection with EG White as the "Spirit of Prophecy" -- they cannot budge from one single former doctrine.

Read the thread. They have actually become worse by disguising their old teachings in false evangelical terms.
..............................
Dewey
An SDA pastor or VERY RARE fully informed church member would love for you to ask them about the Investigative Judgment. It would take me several long hours to explain it in detail Such sutdy would involve greatly perverted explanations of Daniel 8:14; Leviticus 16; the 1260 day texts; All of Daniel 2, 4, 7, 9 AND 11 and all of Revelation.

However, as you say, the typical SDA cannot even begin to explain this foundational doctrine which is the only one they have that is not shared by any other denomination on earth.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Craig
IFB Churches are typically pastored by men who have less education and knowledge of the Bible than does my two-year-old grandson, and yet they are hyper-critical of everyone who does not conform to their pre-school knowledge of Biblical theology. They have never even bothered to read the Bible, but are quite content to read only translations of it, and have never darkened the door of a University, and yet they believe that they alone have all the answers and all the truth. My reply to them is, “Hogwash!”

This is a totally ad hominem attack. You did not respond to any of the points posted by DHK.

 

[Craigbythesea]

You did not respond to any of the points posted by DHK.

Yes, I did. I responded to all of them! You have apparently misunderstood my post.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Many of the pastors here have Ph.d's and D.D's, D.Div's, as well as others having Masters degrees.

And NONE of them who do are pastors of "IFB" churches!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Many of the pastors here have Ph.d's and D.D's, D.Div's, as well as others having Masters degrees.

And NONE of them who do are pastors of "IFB" churches! </font>[/QUOTE]What are your qualifications?
Actually many of them are highly educated as I already referred to. If I am correct Dr. Bob himself is IFB. You act like you are God, omniscient, knowing all of our backgrounds. Where did you gain this knowledge from?
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Where did you gain this knowledge from?

The Baptist Board.

I am sorry that I ruffled your feathers, but the attitude reflected in your posts and the attitude of IFB's in general is VERY offensive to me. An IFB pastor that I know frequently expresses from the pulpit the opinion that if you live in the same city as his church and are not a member of his church, you are not saved—even if you are a member of another IFB church. EVERY translation of the Bible other than the KJV is a book of lies inspired by Satan, and all of the men responsible for them are enemies of the cross of Christ.

This same pastor viciously attacks every other pastor in his city, and every non-IFB pastor in other cities. His church operates a school, K-12, and a Bible “Institute,” and he frequently warns the congregation that if their children do not attend the schools operated by his church, they are being educated by Satan and his hosts (even if they are enrolled in another Christian school). I personally interviewed at length many members of his congregation just as I have interviewed very many members of non-Christian cults, and their responses to my questions were often identical—it was almost as if they were in a trance. During times of fellowship, they sit around and compete to say the most horrible things about contemporary translations, the men who translated them, everyone with a university education, and everyone who dares to think.

Perhaps you are not 100% as radical as this pastor, but the attitude reflected in your posts suggests to me a very similar attitude of IFB-righteousness. The SDA Church has many problems, but they are, in my opinion, no more serious than the problems found in many Baptist churches, especially IFB churches. False doctrines are false doctrines, where ever they may be found. The double standard that is being expressed in this thread is fundamentally wrong!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Where did you gain this knowledge from?

The Baptist Board.

I am sorry that I ruffled your feathers, but the attitude reflected in your posts and the attitude of IFB's in general is VERY offensive to me. An IFB pastor that I know frequently expresses from the pulpit the opinion that if you live in the same city as his church and are not a member of his church, you are not saved—even if you are a member of another IFB church. EVERY translation of the Bible other than the KJV is a book of lies inspired by Satan, and all of the men responsible for them are enemies of the cross of Christ.</font>[/QUOTE]You had a bad experience with one IFB church, and then proceed to white-wash all IFB churches the same way. That is an illogical fallacy, not to mention slanderous. Sorry about your bad experience, but that doesn't mean that all IFB churches are like that. The "I" means Independent. We are independent for good reason. I am independent and not associated with the church that you just described.

I don't question people's salvation, but I would never recommend them to go to any other church than an IFB church.

I am not a KJVO, as described in the versions forum, but at the same time I don't recommend any of the MV's either with possible exception of the NKJV. I have made my position quite clear in that forum: I don't believe that any translation can be inspired including the KJV. But the modern translations have serious problems with them. But that is another topic.

If what you say is true, it sounds like his rhetoric is bit strong, to say the least.

This same pastor viciously attacks every other pastor in his city, and every non-IFB pastor in other cities. His church operates a school, K-12, and a Bible “Institute,” and he frequently warns the congregation that if their children do not attend the schools operated by his church, they are being educated by Satan and his hosts (even if they are enrolled in another Christian school). I personally interviewed at length many members of his congregation just as I have interviewed very many members of non-Christian cults, and their responses to my questions were often identical—it was almost as if they were in a trance. During times of fellowship, they sit around and compete to say the most horrible things about contemporary translations, the men who translated them, everyone with a university education, and everyone who dares to think.

I like to think that I can put things in perspective.
We used to have a radio broadcast in which we preached not just the gospel, but pointed out the error of various churches: Catholic, SDA, and even Lutheran, and many others. Error is error. The Bible teaches that we should expose error. And we did.

We have a Christian school too. I vowed that I would never put my children in the public school system. Certainly some of which they teach could be considered demonic and hellish. The sex and drug scene there is horrible. And the standard of education isn't too high either. We have had to either home-school our children or, when the opportunity availed itself, put them in a Christian school.

It depends what you mean by "another Christian" school. If you mean SDA or Catholic, they aren't even Christian. I wouldn't send my children to those kind of schools either. I would send my children to another Christian school, of similar faith as ours.

Perhaps the questions you asked were of the variety that they had been well taught in, such as concerning the versions issues. If that was a hobby horse of that pastor, then his people were probably well-versed in that subject. I have never yet met a SDA who has not been well versed in Scripture concerning the Sabbath Day. They may not know much else, but they will know Scripture about the Sabbath. They'll be able to quote it just like any well trained zombie--as you were saying??

Perhaps you should do some research on some of the men involved in the work of the Critical text. What kind of men were Westcott and Hort? What about their theology? And some of the other strange things they either did or believe? Is this what you are referring to?

Perhaps you are not 100% as radical as this pastor, but the attitude reflected in your posts suggests to me a very similar attitude of IFB-righteousness. The SDA Church has many problems, but they are, in my opinion, no more serious than the problems found in many Baptist churches, especially IFB churches. False doctrines are false doctrines, where ever they may be found. The double standard that is being expressed in this thread is fundamentally wrong!

So what have you pointed out?
The sin of "IFB-righteousness" or self-righteousness, which I will agree with.
The "sin" of being overly zealous for one translation of the Bible. If he is a Ruckmanite then he could be verging on a cult. But this does not affect anyone's salvation, unlike the doctrines of the SDA movement which clearly direct people to Hell, because of their direct relevance to the doctrines of soteriology and Christology.

It seems to me that you are: "the self-righteous IFB-hater."
At least that is how it comes across in your posts. Thus the sin of the pastor you encountered is no greater than what you are doing right now.
Let's try to keep things in perspective.
DHK