Are All Works Sin?

[mman]

HP: Can you worship the Lord without faith? Can you worship the Lord driving your car? How about as you work? Can you worship the Lord in the shower? Can you worship the Lord brushing your teeth? Could you worship the Lord while playing a musical instrument?

No, No, No, No, No, and No.

You can try, but God is not obligated to accept all "worship" offered to Him. What is the difference between true worship and vain worship?

Vain worship is done according to the doctrines of men. True worship is according to truth. God's word is truth.

Why did God not accept Cain's offering? It was not in faith. Yes, it was in sincerity, no doubt. Cain even became angry that God did not accept his offering. Abel offered his in faith (Heb 11:4), (faith comes from hearing God's word, so God told them what to offer - Rom 10:17) and though he is dead, he is still speaking.

There are a lot of Cains out there expecting God to accept what ever they want to offer, regardless of what God has said that He wants. The only way we can know what God wants in worship is He tells us in His word. That is why we MUST worship in truth (Jn 4:24).

If you follow your line of questioning to it's logical conclusion, then anything not expressly forbidden can be offered to God in worship and He will accept it.

Nadab and Abihu stand as strong examples that we can learn from. They offered strange fire that "God had commanded them not". Fire is fire, right? Not in God's eyes (Lev 10:1-3).

Can I worship God in eating yeast rolls with honey and butter? If I really like it and decide to add it to the unleavened bread on the Lord's table, because I like it and God didn't say not to, then what's wrong with that. I then force others to accept it or "worship" somewhere else. I convice others to accept this practice until it is the norm and those who don't are looked upon as strange. Churches are split, groups divided, and others are ridiculed, just because some people force what they like on others, without regard to what God has said. Yes, you still have the unleavened bread in the Lord's supper that is eaten with the yeast roll and it tastes so much better this way. God didn't say not to, did He. Surely God will accept this. I can worship Him in the shower or while eating a yeast roll with the unleavened bread during the Lord's supper, right?

No thank you. I'll stick with what God's word says and what they did in the early church. I'll stick with my unleavened bread and "unleavened" singing, just as God commanded.

 

[mman]

In your mind, you think you have handled scripture properly, but it is lacking in most everyone's mind.

Did you read Heb 11 or stop after the first 3 verses? Faith has substance. The faith you describe is without action, dead and cannot save (Jas 2). Even the devils have that type of faith. That is the faith you describe.

Read all of Heb 11. Why are the examples given? Faith is described then examples given.

This is not that hard. This time, don't stop reading.

Here's what you do. In Heb 11, every time you see the word faith, substitue your definition of "belief only" into the sentence. You will quickly see that your definition is contrary to God's definition.

Then substitute "believing God and obeying His instructions" and see how that makes sense.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mman: No, No, No, No, No, and No.

HP: Well, then you must believe one can only worship the Lord IF they are not driving a car, taking a shower, working, playing a musical instrument, etc. You must believe that at these times and places your faith, ceases to exist. How do these times and places affect your faith, or the Scriptural admonition to worship "in spirit and in truth?"

Where and at what times will God accept your worship? On what basis, at what times, or in what places do you approach God, and why would you be unable to worship Him at all times and in all places, if in fact you are approaching Him in spirit and in truth?

 

[Eric B]

Did you read Heb 11 or stop after the first 3 verses? Faith has substance. The faith you describe is without action, dead and cannot save (Jas 2). Even the devils have that type of faith. That is the faith you describe.

Read all of Heb 11. Why are the examples given? Faith is described then examples given.

This is not that hard. This time, don't stop reading.

Here's what you do. In Heb 11, every time you see the word faith, substitue your definition of "belief only" into the sentence. You will quickly see that your definition is contrary to God's definition.

Then substitute "believing God and obeying His instructions" and see how that makes sense.

Did you read my whole post? Or ony that sentence. I didn't "stop" at v. 3, nor did I even say "belief ONLY"; it is you who skip over the verse, and I went on to say:

Right here, the very first example of "faith" is a belief, not a work. Then, the passage goes on the give all the examples of the faithful who BELIEVED, which was MANIFEST through their works. This of course is to motivate us to let our faith lead us to doing good works. But v.3 sets the stage by saying that faith is understanding, not the works themselves. Nowhere does the chapter say "faith IS works".

You're trying to say "works are mentioned in the rest of the chapter, so works aren't works, but faith". But a simple readin of the whole chapter shows that faith is one thing that is manifest by works, not contigious with them.

And again, you use the same ridiculous analogies that don't prove anything. Nowhere does the TEXT (The "word" that we are to HEAR that "Faith" comes by) tell us what exactly Cain did wrong. So "faith" in that case was a state of the heart, not an act.

God told the people "sweet incense", which would rule out any other kind as "strange fire", so there is no need to guess from "silence". Unleavened bread rules out yeast rolls. But singing does not rule out instruments. They are two things done together all the time, just like all of your "expedients".

"Unleavened singing", now you've made up a totally unbiblical concept out of nowhere. If this is not written, it is not faith, and is sin. (Because it is just carnal proud oneupmanship "I'm a better Christian than everyone else" thinking)

And you can't worship God anywhere? You're only supposed to worship in a church building? Now what scripture says that?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eric: Nowhere does the TEXT (The "word" that we are to HEAR that "Faith" comes by) tell us what exactly Cain did wrong. So "faith" in that case was a state of the heart, not an act.

HP: How is faith a ‘state of the heart,’ and how does that state of heart gain it’s sinful nature? If Cain’s heart was evil, and that from birth, what connection does faith have with sin? Are you certain that faith and sin have no connection?

 

[Eric B]

What I meant there, is that Abel was offering his sacrifice in trust of God', while Cain (regardless of what he was offering) apparently did not. People get hung up in what was being offered, but both offered of the product they were raising. To say Cain was rejected for offering grain is to say it was wrong for him to be a grain farmer. There were grain offerings accepted in the Law, and while we know the blood offering was the central one that represented Christ, to try to make that the error of Cain is to push our "systematic theology" beyond what the text actually says.

HP: Because we understand ‘by faith’ does not equate to faith being a mental assent. Faith involves trust which is developed as a result of the formation of an intent. We choose to accept certain ideas as factual, while rejecting others. Both acceptance and rejection involve acts of the will.



HP: I agree that every work begins with the formation of an intent from which every act of the will initiates. I say the same for faith. Faith is not something we simply passively receive, but is the results of both the influence from God joined with our voluntary response that births faith. It takes both God’s influences and mans willing formation of an intent to birth saving faith. If you eliminate either one you end up in error. Man’s part of the formation of an intent would never in and of itself merit God’s forgiveness, for something had to satisfy the demands of the law. A man, if he were to die for his sins, could never satisfy the demands of the law on the behalf of the sins of the entire world. It took the One and Only Eternal God, giving of Himself, to satisfy the eternal and universal demands and scope of the law that held out the only hope for the sinner, i.e., eternal damnation.



HP: Here I would disagree. I would think that it takes as much faith to believe in the devil as it does to believe in God. One would have to trust in not only his existence, but in him delivering their desires as well. Trust involves an act of the will, the formation of an intent, does it not? Forming an intent of the will is the very initial beginning of any and all cognizant acts. The intent is the heart of all morality. It is the beginning of all voluntary acts. Why wouldn't the formation of an intent be classified as ‘doing something?’ Would God condemn us for ‘not’ doing anything? Scripture again states that it is the intents formed in the heart for which we are justified or condemned. Are we not condemned for failure to place our faith in God and His Word? Would that not be proof that our faith is placed in something other than that which is Holy and Just. i.e., that which is evil and selfish?

I would pretty much go along with that. Still, some people make the actual works themselves what get us into Heaven (while others willpoint out, understandably, that "believing" ("mental assent") could be like a work as well. (i.e. "duty faith")

 

[billwald]

This is double talk, Christian gnosticism

>Why did God not accept Cain's offering? It was not in faith. Yes, it was in sincerity, no doubt.

What does "in" mean?


This is an example of Christian Gnosticism, putting a secret spin on common words that only insiders can understand. It transforms "faith" from "belief" to some sort of mechanical filter that God places between humans and himself - it is a predetermined pass/fail test that is the equivalent of predestination or election. Thus "in" refers to God's secret list of the elect. Maybe that's the meaning of the old radio preacher who said, "It ain't enough to believe IN Jesus, you gots to believe ON (shouted) Jesus." On Jesus' secret list?

This is the failing of Reformed theology. They "world view" requires them to "believe" that they are on God's secret list of the elect. There is nothing in Reformed theology which would prevent God from "electing" only Pelagians.

 

[Eric B]

I thought you were Reformed. In fact, it does say on your profile "Christian Reformed Church". Have you abandoned it?

Anyway, what you say is certainly correct. People try to get all sorts of unbiblical concepts into the Bible, with what they call this "inferential doctrine". They take one passage, and read something else into it, and claim it is "inferred". That is used both by the Reformed, and groups like the Campbellists and other sects using Cain and other so-called "arguments from silence".

 

[billwald]

I'm Reformed. As Whatshisname demonstrated 2 centuies ago, all belief systems and logic systems are ultimately circular.

The Dutch variety of Calvinism seems to most accurately represent the real world - all human activity is corrupted by sin, including the Church. So the problem coms down to which political/theological/economic/social system best compensates for our sin nature?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eric: some people make the actual works themselves what get us into Heaven (while others willpoint out, understandably, that "believing" ("mental assent") could be like a work as well. (i.e. "duty faith")

HP: The point I am trying to drive at is that all faith involves man’s voluntary choice of the will. Faith involves man choosing something. Faith is not just a mental assent, for it involves a choice of the will. It involves man doing something in the way of forming an intention, the very foundational act of all moral actions. Without a choice made voluntarily by the will, faith cannot be predicated of man.

When the Scriptures speak of our salvation being by faith as opposed to works, it is not stating or implying that the will of man is not involved in the process, but rather that the will of man is not the grounds of our salvation. The will of man has no power in and of itself to perform something that would merit salvation. Just the same, the will of man must comply with the stated conditions of salvation. Those conditions again are not meritorious, but are thought of in the sense of 'not without which,' not 'that for the sake of.'

 

[SaggyWoman]

We are created for good works. If we are a new creation, we are therefore created for good works.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Saggywoman: We are created for good works. If we are a new creation, we are therefore created for good works.

HP: One thing is for certain, we certainly did not live up to our creative task from our youth up. Did God create us as evil and then good?

What about those that are evil and that continually? Are they created for their evil works?

 

[mman]

Did you read my whole post? Or ony that sentence. I didn't "stop" at v. 3, nor did I even say "belief ONLY"; it is you who skip over the verse, and I went on to say:

Right here, the very first example of "faith" is a belief, not a work. Then, the passage goes on the give all the examples of the faithful who BELIEVED, which was MANIFEST through their works. This of course is to motivate us to let our faith lead us to doing good works. But v.3 sets the stage by saying that faith is understanding, not the works themselves. Nowhere does the chapter say "faith IS works".

You're trying to say "works are mentioned in the rest of the chapter, so works aren't works, but faith". But a simple readin of the whole chapter shows that faith is one thing that is manifest by works, not contigious with them.

And again, you use the same ridiculous analogies that don't prove anything. Nowhere does the TEXT (The "word" that we are to HEAR that "Faith" comes by) tell us what exactly Cain did wrong. So "faith" in that case was a state of the heart, not an act.

God told the people "sweet incense", which would rule out any other kind as "strange fire", so there is no need to guess from "silence". Unleavened bread rules out yeast rolls. But singing does not rule out instruments. They are two things done together all the time, just like all of your "expedients".

"Unleavened singing", now you've made up a totally unbiblical concept out of nowhere. If this is not written, it is not faith, and is sin. (Because it is just carnal proud oneupmanship "I'm a better Christian than everyone else" thinking)

And you can't worship God anywhere? You're only supposed to worship in a church building? Now what scripture says that?

Your inconsistencies are glaring. "Unleavened bread rules out yeast rolls. But singing does not rule out instruments"?

The apostles and early church sang and did not use instruments of music.

God's approved music = singing
God's approved bread on the Lord's supper = unleavened

If you add to either of these, IT IS WRONG.

It matters not what you like or prefer, you are changing a command, by adding to it. Instrumental music in worship was not added by man for many centruies after the original instruction was given. Adding yeast rolls to the unleavened bread is no different than adding mechanical instruments to singing.

Look to the NT to see the PATTERN. Follow their approved examples. Follow the direct commands.

God MUST be worshipped in TRUTH. Learn what that means! It certainly does not mean what ever I want to do or according to the commandments of men.

If God MUST be worshipped in TRUTH, and God's word is truth, then I MUST have an approved example, direct command or some type of necessary inference for everything I do, if I want to worship in TRUTH.

Yes we can acknowledge God in all that we do, but not all we do is worship.

 

[mman]

HP: Well, then you must believe one can only worship the Lord IF they are not driving a car, taking a shower, working, playing a musical instrument, etc. You must believe that at these times and places your faith, ceases to exist. How do these times and places affect your faith, or the Scriptural admonition to worship "in spirit and in truth?"

Where and at what times will God accept your worship? On what basis, at what times, or in what places do you approach God, and why would you be unable to worship Him at all times and in all places, if in fact you are approaching Him in spirit and in truth?

What is acceptable worship?

The bible talks about vain worship and true worship. What are the differences?

When we MUST worship in truth and God's word is truth, then we must worship according to the pattern that is given in scriptures. We must have an approved example, direct command, or necessary inference for all that we do.

Vain worship is according to the doctrines or teachings of man while true worship is according to scripture.

Show me according to the scripture how one can worship God alone on a Tuesday morning while playing a guitar. Just give me an indication of how that could be true worship which is acceptable to God.

Of course faith does not cease when I am not worshipping, just everything I do is not worship. I don't know how to worship God in the shower because He hasn't told me how. I can pray to Him, be thankful, think about Him, but I cannot worship Him, per se.

If I decide to kill goats in worship to God, is He obligated to accept that? What if I paint my house with the blood of the goats in worship to God, is that fine? Must He accept it as worshipping Him in truth?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

We are created for good works. If we are a new creation, we are therefore created for good works.

GE:

Indeed! And isn't it wonderful the Bible says, that God prepared for us!

Yet even these very same works when or if presented or offered before the Lord as meritorious in any way in itself, as if contributing any good to our salvation, these very good works are no longer blessed by God, but cursed. Nothing should compete for the honour that belongs to Christ only. He is our full salvation, the Author and Finisher of the Faith - of our faith. Not even the glory of the Holy Law remains glory if it competes with Christ for His glory. If put over against Christ for authority or power or virtue or honour or standard, the Law itself is dishonoured and made void by the pride of man. Then our best works are become sin.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

mmann:

"When we MUST worship in truth and God's word is truth, then we must worship according to the pattern that is given in scriptures. We must have an approved example, direct command, or necessary inference for all that we do."

GE:

The crux is: WHAT is this?
Is it the Law; is it the Scriptures? (the same thing!) Is it Gospel 'morals'? (the same thing!) Is it any concept? any feeling? any strong conviction, culture, inbred ability. Is it a philosophy, a wisdom, a principle?
All in vain and vanity!
It is not 'WHAT'; is is WHO -- it is Christ. It is Christ incarnated, suffering, dying, and raised from the dead. It is the Son, the Person of the Godhead crucified and risen, alive and LIFE; God and Lord, Saviour and Head of "the Body that is of Christ's Own", the Church, Author and Finisher of the Faith. It is the Christian God. He is everything, and is the only in all of this said: ... worship in Truth and God's Word Who is Truth, the Pattern (that is given in scriptures). The Approved Example, the Direct Command -- the 'necessary inference for all that we do'.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But it is this Jesus Christ, so, and in no other way, nor in any other capacity or person, "the necessary inference for all that we do."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP:

"On what basis, at what times, or in what places do you approach God, and why would you be unable to worship Him at all times and in all places, if in fact you are approaching Him in spirit and in truth?
What is acceptable worship?"

GE:

One thing becomes clear from the study of the New Testament Scriptures (as well as from the Old), that God is worshipped from within the Body that is His upon this earth. Even one's private, inner chamber prayer, 'MUST' (quoted) be that of a fellow-believer and a fellow-worshipper, or is like a strange odour to God. Because true worship derives from being the worship of the Body of them that are His, "the Body that is of Christ's Own", of whom He is "the Head" (Col2:17,19), "the People : of God's". Severed from the Body, is being severed from the Head. Always. Only the prayer of a Christian, is acceptable to God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Being a Christian is not what we regard ourselves but what God regards us "in Christ".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I could not have said that in the first person singular!