Are All Works Sin?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Follow the logic.

Scripture states that anything not of faith is sin. Because faith and works are said to be at antipodes, could it not also be said that all works are therefore sin?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Follow the logic.

Scripture states that anything not of faith is sin. Because faith and works are said to be at antipodes, could it not also be said that all works are therefore sin?

Oops....I think the logic statement you have used is faulty.

You said anything that is not "A" is "B". And because "A" and "C" are opposites then "C" must equal "B".

Not necessarily true.

Here's a math example using your logic statement.

"Any number that is not a prime number (only two factors = one and itself) is a composite number (more than two factors). Because -17 is the opposite of the prime number +17, then -17 must be composite.

That's a false statement.

And from Social Studies....

"If you are not a native-born citizen you are automatically disqualified from running for president. Because my four-year-old neighbor is the opposite of that, he IS a native-born citizen, then he is qualified to run for president.

Again, faulty logic.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SO: Again, faulty logic.

HP: Can we assume then that you would conclude that some works are faith because not all are sin?

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Follow the logic.

Scripture states that anything not of faith is sin. Because faith and works are said to be at antipodes, could it not also be said that all works are therefore sin?

Scarlett had a good answer. I have a simpler one. Anything not of faith is sin. Works are not faith, but surely you will agree that works can come of faith. It did not say "whatever is not faith is sin", but rather "whatever is not of faith is sin".

Those little words are important. Next you'll be suggesting that money is the root of all evil.

Michael

 

[Scarlett O.]

HP: Can we assume then that you would conclude that some works are faith because not all are sin?

Hi, HP....you are making me giggle over here. :laugh: :laugh: (Not at you, but with you, hopefully.)

Again, that logic statement is flawed. Now you have said that because "A" is never "B" and "C" is not always "B", then "A" is sometimes "C".

That's like saying some squirrels are rabbits because rabbits cannot fly and not all squirrels are flying squirrels.

Seriously, though.....I think what is causing your logic statements to be invalid is that you are asserting that faith and works are opposites.

They are not opposite of each. They are the flip sides of the same coin. The complement each other, not oppose each other.

Paul said, "By grace are you saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast." Faith alone saves you.

James said, "Faith without works is dead." Works are evidence of faith, not faith itself.

Those two men and those two statements do not oppose each other. They are not antipodes.

Faith, by grace, saves you. Works testify to that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Snitz: Anything not of faith is sin. Works are not faith, but surely you will agree that works can come of faith.

HP: If something is ‘not of faith,’ what is it ‘of?’

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SO: Again, that logic statement is flawed. Now you have said that because "A" is never "B" and "C" is not always "B", then "A" is sometimes "C".

HP: I said no such thing. I simply asked if it could be rightfully assumed that you believed that some works are faith because not all are sin? Apparently you would say no to this statement as well.

Tell us what then what the statement in Scripture means that states, “Anything not of faith is sin.” Can I rightfully assume that if something is not sin it must then be of faith, or is it impossible to logically assume anything at all from this statement?

 

[D28guy]

This is one unuuuuuuuusual thread! :laugh:

Mike :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SO: They are not opposite of each. They are the flip sides of the same coin. The complement each other, not oppose each other.

HP: Follow the logic of SO.

According to SO, a coin is made up of two sides that are NOT opposites, but compliment each other. A coin would not be a coin without both sides being present at all times, for a coin has two sides and would not be a coin without both of them present.

Therefore, faith and works must always be seen together in order to get the real picture of either, just as both sides of a coin have to be together in order to facilitate the real image of a coin.

I love the clear way that SO explains thing to us 'logically,' and by doing so keeps us on track. :thumbs:

 

[Scarlett O.]

You explained it better than me! :thumbs:

Here's something else to chew on.

That verse, Romans 14:23, to me, is not talking about saving faith. It's at the tail end of a passage explaining that although you may have faith to participate in a certain activity, a weaker Christian may believe the same activity to be sinful.

Faith meaning that you feel is it lawful before God to behave this way.

This verse, in saying whatever is not of faith is sin, is saying that whatever you feel compelled NOT to do as a Christian is sinful to you.

For example, there are a handful women at my church who have NEVER worn a tailored pants suit to church and never will. They wear pants anywhere else, but not to church. They believe it is a grevious sin before God for a woman to wear pants to church.

They do not have "faith" to believe that is it lawful (OK) to do so. To them, wearing of pants to church is not of faith, it is sin.

I would never "call" them on it or embarrass them about that particular idea. They are my weaker sisters.

 

[BroTom64]

Maybe this will shed some light on this discussion:

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So, works can be Good and can lead men to glorify the Father.

First thing I thought of.

Tom

 

[Jarthur001]

HP: If something is ‘not of faith,’ what is it ‘of?’

all actions/works come from faith or fear.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: After mulling over the statement SO made about faith and works being two sides of the same coin, I have a problem with that statement in light of the verses she mentions. Here was her quote:

Seriously, though.....I think what is causing your logic statements to be invalid is that you are asserting that faith and works are opposites.
They are not opposite of each. They are the flip sides of the same coin. The complement each other, not oppose each other.
Paul said, "By grace are you saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast." Faith alone saves you.
James said, "Faith without works is dead." Works are evidence of faith, not faith itself.
Those two men and those two statements do not oppose each other. They are not antipodes.
Faith, by grace, saves you. Works testify to that.

HP: Now here SO appears to me to desire to have it both ways. She says that faith and works complement each other, being two sides of the same coin. She then states the two verses in question are at ‘antipodes’ with each other. How could they be at antipodes with each other if faith and works are two sides of the same coin? To be consistent would not SO have to say that they are indeed consistent with each other, being each side of the same coin, but that they are both just viewing the truth from two perspectives? How can sides of the same coin be at antipodes with each other? A coin is not a coin apart from both sides is it not?

What is further puzzling to me is that when I made the following remark, SO did not seem to find fault with it. I said, “Therefore, faith and works must always be seen together in order to get the real picture of either, just as both sides of a coin have to be together in order to facilitate the real image of a coin.” If both have to be seen together to get a true picture of either, how could one be said to be at antipodes with the other as appears to be how SO viewed the two scriptures above?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jaurthur001: all actions/works come from faith or fear.

HP: Where did you hear that? How can one have faith apart from any action?
"Show me your faith without your works, but I will show you my faith by my works, for faith without works is dead being alone."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BrotherTom64: Maybe this will shed some light on this discussion:

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So, works can be Good and can lead men to glorify the Father.

HP: Amen. Works of righteousness. Then we would also agree that works and faith are not at antipodes with each other, used in at least one sense, correct?

 

[Scarlett O.]

She says that faith and works complement each other, being two sides of the same coin. She then states the two verses in question are at ‘antipodes’ with each other.

No, HP, I said that they were not antipodes....that they did not oppose each other.

The two men and the two statements do not oppose each other. They are not antipodes.

 

[DHK]

To the unsaved:
Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.
--Even such "good works" as plowing the fields, preparing them to plant the crops for food for others to live, is sin. All the works of the wicked are sin.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

To the saved:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
--The very reason we are saved is to do good.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Scarlett: No, HP, I said that they were not antipodes....that they did not oppose each other.

HP: Forgive me. You were asking a rhetorical question, not making a statement. That clears up at least some of my questions.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SO: Paul said, "By grace are you saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast." Faith alone saves you.
James said, "Faith without works is dead." Works are evidence of faith, not faith itself.
Those two men and those two statements do not oppose each other. They are not antipodes.
Faith, by grace, saves you. Works testify to that.

HP: I suppose some of my confusion comes from this statement. James does not say that works simply testify that one is saved, although that is certainly part of it. He said that without works, faith does not exist, it is dead being alone. Works, in some sense, must be involved in the faith process for faith to save.

We both know that there is only one thing that is meritorious in salvation, i.e., the blood of Christ. I would hope that we both agree that there is only one grounds of salvation, i.e., the grace of God. The point of difference between us, if any on this subject, is whether or not the grace of God and the blood of Christ alone actually accomplishes salvation apart from any effort or choice of man.

I believe Scripture states that man must voluntarily form an intent of repentance and faith, without which no man shall se the Lord. Man is not passive in salvation, neither is salvation simply the predestined fate of man. Man is created by God with the capacities to accept or reject obedience and salvation, and must voluntarily exercise his will in order to be saved. God will never override the will of man in salvation, and no man will be saved unless they voluntarily, without force or coercion, yield themselves to the obedience of repentance and faith. Bear in mind that all intents God calls upon man to form in order to be saved, are not meritorious, and could not atone for a single sin without the shed blood of Christ. Mans involvement in the salvation process is always thought of in the sense of 'not without which,' not that for the sake of.

Every work is at its conception nothing more or less than an intent formed by the will. Every act of faith at its inception is the same. No one has faith due to the coercion of God forcing it upon man. Saving faith is the results of God first granting to all men the abilities necessary to accomplish the exercising of faith, granting to man what Scripture reveals to us as the ‘measure of faith.’ Still man must, in voluntary obedience, form the necessary intents (repentance and faith) in line with the conditions of salvation God has said that none will be saved apart from.

Saving faith has two distinct parts, the grounds, God’s grace, and the means by which the offer is and can be made, i.e. the shed blood of Christ at Calvary, and the conditions God sets forth that man must comply with in order for any man to receive the salvation (thought of in the sense of not without which) that entails initially repentance and faith. Repentance and faith are works, in the sense of them being 'acts of the will' in the formation of obedient intents, that without which no one can or will be saved.

Only as we recognize the crucial conditions that God calls upon man to voluntarily accomplish, without force or coercion, acts of the will, works accomplished’ in a sense,’ involving faith and repetance, can we truly see faith and works as two sides of the same coin needed to accomplish salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

One of the purposes of this thread is to bring out the fact that the word ‘works’ involves two notions. First there are works that are meritorious, and there are works that simply fulfill conditions that God has set froth for man to voluntarily do in order to be saved. Nothing we do, thought of as works, are meritorious in salvation, but no one will be saved apart from the fulfilling of the works God calls upon man to do.

All works, whether meritorious or not, first involve an act of the will in the formation of an intent. Whether or not they are meritorious or not depends on whether or not God sees and accepts them as such. In salvation, the works God calls upon man to do, the intents of the heart God calls upon man to form, are not meritorious in nature. Just the same, they are indeed works man must do in order to be saved, without which no man shall see the Lord. IN THIS SENSE AND THIS SENSE ALONE, man is indeed a co-worker with God in accomplishing our salvation.