ARE ARMINIAN GOING TO HEAVEN?

The Bible speaks about God's knowledge of the elect in the Biblical concept of an intimate relationship. Your last statement really sums it up. Those whom he did forknow, he also predestinated, not just to salvation from Hell, but to a holy and abundant life! (a quote from the SDAV2003)

Yes, Some Armenians will be dragged kicking and screaming into heaven by the Sovereign will of God, whether they like it or not!

 

Romans 10:17 does not say that "hearing" comes by the written word of God. Sadly most versions would have it that way. A literal rendering of the Textus Receptus will challenge the view of most professing believers on Rom. 10:17.

"So then THE faith {cometh} from hearing, and THE hearing by means of (a) living word from God"

Comments: First, there is a definite article in front of pistis - "the faith". "The faith" here refers to a God-given ability to receive spiritual things, such as never enter the hearts of unregenerated persons (1Cor. 2:6-16). 2ndly, "the faith" comes "from hearing" - ex akoês. Meaning that the spiritual ability to receive spiritual things from Christ's Spirit comes from a God-given hearing ear, a spiritual ear of a spiritually circumcised heart. 3rdly, "the hearing" (ear) comes by means of God uttering a word (hrêmatos) by His very own divine voice, which echoes in the unseen and spiritual realm. Christ the Lord Himself said by the voice of the Son of God shall dead ones be made alive (John 5:25).

Thus, "faith" here is not some notional belief in the written testimony of the Gospel of the Bible. "Hearing" is not hearing with the outward ears. The "word" is not the written word, the Bible, which is referred to as logos, not hrêma.

The starter of the topic otherwise brought some thoughtworthy points. I believe that an accurate theology does not save a man, but a man saved by the grace of Christ will be accurate in his theology. He may for various reasons be off on some point(s) at some time in his profession. But as a general statement I believe it biblical to say that persevering in heresy/heresies is an evidence of not having the anointing which is of God, i.e. the Spirit of Christ Jesus. Many people are deceived in that they think they are "born again" while at the same time they go on maintaining heretical beliefs and notions. Like as to Jezebel of old was granted space to repent, likewise today is granted space to repent, not necessarily grace to repent. And where space to repent is granted, and no repentance from heretical beliefs and practices are to be seen, there is reason to assume the unpenitent one does not have God, 2John 9. These are solemn things to think about, and sadly in these days they are rarely brought up.


Harald

 

David was a perfect example.
he never lost his salvation even when he murdered and committed adultery.

 

Rom.10:13;for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

 

I have never heard anyone even hint at the notion that Rom 10:17 meant that a person had to actually HEAR the gospel. That would automatically leave out the deaf (a group BTW that I seem to be rapidly becoming a member of ).

As far as Eternal Security is concerned, there is no doctrine that I am more convinced of than this. Can a person be saved and not hold to it? Yes, but, my confidence in their salvation will be perportional to their distance away from it.

I never can remeber how many points I am toward being a calvinst or arminian. It has never been of the slighest importance in my 30+ years of being a Christian and only on a very rare occasion has it even been the slighest bit interesting. I do know that I am not a full one of either and I have to be reminded what those points are every time they are discussed. (Guess which forum I have hardly ever been to. )

 

Quote from six kids

The Lord not only knows who are His - He chose who are His - Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Quote from John3v36

David understood eternal security - He did not ask God to restore his salvation - He prayed that God would (Ps 51:12) Restore unto me the JOY of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. [emphasis mine]

Excellent thread!

 

Who am I to tell an Arminian that he is going to heaven when he admits he doesn't even know himself?

Here is a follow up question: Can a man who thinks he didn't have to do anything to be saved be saved? Is such a man not trusting in election rather than in Christ?

Mark Osgatharp

 

I don't want to throw this into a Calvinism/Arminian debate, but as far as talking about which is more damaging to the church and damning more people to hell, the overall historical winner is Calvinism.

Here are my points.

1. First Calvinism clearly proposes that some are damned to Hell by no choice of their own, but by our loving (???) Heavenly Father. You are told to love your neighbor as yourself, honor your father and your mother, and even love your enemy so God can cast some of them into hell just because He chose to. This is like getting your kid a dog with the intention of killing it after he comes to love it. This doesn't square with the Biblical view of the love or mercy of God.

2. Who really knows if you are truly one of the "elect"? You will recognize them by their fruits you may say, but maybe someone just works and works for the Lord and still isn't one of the elect. I just came for an extremely evangelistic church. This church taught that cursed Calvinistic doctrine of OSAS, yet members were constantly being saved and baptized again. Many of these were dedicated and faithful in service and attendance to the church. Where is the assurance that you are one of the elect?

3. If Calvinism is wrong think of how many people have closed their eyes in this world only to open them in Hell because they believed that it did not matter how their relationship with the Father was as long as they said the sinner's prayer.

Here is a verse to think about.

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV

If election is a done deal and could not be lost Peter did not know about it.

There have been, are, and will be apostate Christians and there is a false church to welcome them in, make them feel good about their sin and lack of relationship with God and ever so gently deceive them into the pits of Hell. Some of these apostates will be our family.

Study it out in the Word of God apart from the commentaries before it is too late for someone you love.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

I have never heard a person who believes in election talk about election to hell. If you view the Calvinist position logically, all men are damned to hell, The mercy and grace of God allows some to be saved from the certain destination of all sinners, The only people I have heard espouse this philosophy you speak of are people who want to slander the position of those who believe in election, besides, election is clearly taught in scripture, why argue, doesn't mean finite human brains have to be able to understand the details for it to be truth!

Very good point, I have not had the same experience as you with OSAS, and Scripture teaches election to Holy Living, so you should see fruit, but there are many cases I have seen where it becomes obvious that some people were working for works sake, sad, but it happens. Salvation has nothing to do with those things, neither does Calvinism teach it to be so.

If arminianism is wrong think of how many people have closed their eyes in Hell because they believe that it did not matter how their relationship with the Father was as long as they said the sinner's prayer. I guess I don't see what that emotional drivel has to do with the issue at hand. Those who God's elects will not be in Hell, period, I don't have to worry about that, I just have to fulfill my mission of getting the message out, not worry about who will be in Hell, I have to assume that everyone will be if I don't tell them

The verse still refers to election, again Peter could not determine who were the elect, and had to assume that some of them may have been relying on a false conversion, or a works based justification

More emotionalism, that doesn't align with Scripture. Purely from a Doctrinal perspective or a Theological framework perspective, God will save the Elect, with or without me!

From a practical outlook, and taking the whole mission that God has for my life, I have been commanded to fulfill the great commission. I cannot know who God will move to accept

So yes, some arminians will be in heaven

 

Does theological error necessarily guarantee one
a place in Hell?

I was reared in holiness-Arminianism, which was
a really whacked-out doctrine. Regardless, I
prayed for salvation with sincerity, for the first
time, in 1963. Because of lack of good teaching
and doctrine, I requested salvation many times
after that, the most notable times being in 1971
and 1984.

I was thinking about this yesterday, and it occurred
to me, for the first time, that I have actually been a
believer since 1963 -- 40 years ago in July. What
a shock! The Arminianism I was taught indeed
stole the joy of much of those 40 years from me;
regardless, I would say that all that time, I was,
indeed, His.

 

Personally, I think the more appropriate question is, "How many Calvinists will go to Heaven having not accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior?" The Bible clearly states that in order to be saved someone must "believe on Him," and pick up their cross and follow him. Those who espouse the correctness of "cheap grace" will find themselves standing in front of my Lord saying "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" The Calvimist notion of doing nothing because that furthers God's Sovereinty will be found to be sorely wanting at the Judgement.

 

Personally, I thought the second question was far more incisive:

Here is a follow up question: Can a man who thinks he didn't have to do anything to be saved be saved? Is such a man not trusting in election rather than in Christ?

 

According to the Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics - http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/

“Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.”

If God has chosen to offer salvation to some and not to others, has He not condemned them to Hell by refusing to offer salvation to them based upon no choice of their own but by His chosing? Some of these non-elect will be our family, friends, neighbors and even enemies that God tells us to love. How is this empty emotionalism? Calvinism is Biblically flawed and logically flawed. How in the world are we supposed to love a God who condemns those He commands us to love to Hell without any opportunity for salvation? How are we supposed to rejoice in Heaven while our mom or children burn in torment in Hell because they weren’t one of the elect?

Let’s compare the two as if they were both wrong and see why I believe this is DEFINITELY an emotional issue.

Suppose Calvinism is wrong, then belief of the perseverance of the saints is also wrong too. Many people walk into our churches, are convicted of sin and brought to repentance and a saving relationship with Christ only to later fall into sin and forsake this saving covenant relationship. These people believe that they are the elect and that they are always saved no matter what they do. These people die and go to Hell.

VS.

Arminianism is wrong. The belief that one must persevere in this relationship with Christ or lose their salvation is wrong. If you are an Arminian or a Calvinist it does matter so long as you are one of the elect. The elect are still the elect no matter what they believe so they are going to be saved anyway.

Which seems more realistic? Which seems like Pie in the Sky Theology? Which seems more dangerous to ignore?


Here, is what I as an Arminian believe. We have assurance of our salvation as much as we do not break the covenant relationship that God established for us through His Son Jesus Christ. I do not believe that one sin will cause me to fall from Grace. I do believe that if I spurn God’s Grace and forsake this saving covenant relationship God will cast me away. It is called Apostasy and it is predicted for the last days.

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1 Timothy 4:1 NIV

It is an emotional issue.

In the Love of Christ,
Tim

 

It is still very important to note that Calvinism does not teach that men are elected to hell, it teaches that God has chosen to save some from the certain condemnation deserved by all. It is a big difference at least to me. It aligns with God's character just fine as far as I'm concerned, since people going to hell, are simply getting the punishment that fits the crime so to speak. Can I explain how God chooses, no, but the nature of his character and attirbutes determines that he must, even if it wasn't clearly taught in scripture.



Our difference in views on Apostacy is more semantic than anything. But I think it is clear that there are many in our churches today, as predicted by Paul, that are professors of faith, but who "went out from us, because they were not of us" They clearly were never true possessors of true saving faith, and hence never "lost" their salvation, but never were truely saved in the first place. Honestly, a Calvinistic view of salvation if taught and viewed properly should encourage one to really evaluate their life and "make their calling and election sure" since there is a black and white side to the issue, you don't go back and forth from sinful practices to getting re-saved, a sinful pattern of behaviour might just indicate that you are not a true possessor of saving faith, a much more frieghtening prospect than, "oh, I need to get saved again"

IMHO

 

If I can have no choice in salvation than how or why would I make my calling & election sure? The way you speak I would either be save or condemed to hell, no matter what I say or pray.

 

So then the Spirit regenerates all, its just that not all choose Christ after this?