Tom Butler said:
SFIC and Mr. M, thanks.
SFIC, I, too, would have some skepticism about such a deathbed profession as you described it.
Mr. M, since I am not a dispensationalist, I would quibble somewhat with the "church age" question, but that aside, I agree with much of what you posted.
My understanding of the "church age" is that it began at Pentecost. Of course, I hold that Jesus himself founded his church during his earthly ministry. I also hold that his true followers during that period were saved--born of the Spirit, born from above, if you will.
Seems to me that Steaver drew a distinction between being saved and being born of God during Jesus' ministry. Is this consistent with the dispy view that everything up to Pentecost was basically Old Testament?
I disagree with that view, of course. I also hold that the HS was active and present during Jesus' ministry.
SFIC, Mr. M and others, please feel free to add more to the discussion.
I'm through for the night and will check in tomorrow.
First, I do agree that the Holy Spirit was active and present during the ministry of Christ as He was from Adam onward. My point on the matter for anyone reading is that the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit (and the baptism for that matter) for all believers at the moment of salvation is a unique ministry and protocol of the Holy Spirit only during the church age. As you noticed earlier I made reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in and through believers during other times, all other times but not per the unique mode, method and protocol for church age believers as referenced above.
As far as the exact timing of the establishment of the church, I tend not to make that an area of significant debate but I hold to the belief that "church age" during the Christocentric phase of human history began after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ commencing at Pentecost (this is not to ignore the weight of those holding to other positions but I believe, nevertheless, that they are not correct but I do not arrogantly dismiss anyone else with a cavalier arrogance).
The view you are referring to regarding differentiating between being born again and saved is not a dispensational view that I hold to. I do realize that there are all kinds of churches that hold to some form or fashion of specific dispensationalism (as opposed to all churches that recognized dispensations or eras or time with unique protocols for those eras like the OT Theocracy of Israel and the Church but do not use the term dispensational to identify such distinctions) and within those churches there are those eager to be the smartest guy in the room, the one with the Best and Most INSIGHT. So maybe somewhere that is part of some sect of dispensationalists but I have generally not found a distinction between being saved and being born again. I will say this, dispensationalism does not require such a view nor is it a necessary conclusion in the application of a dispensational scheme by ANY stretch.
I think that the biggest misconception people have is equating being indwelt with the Holy Spirit as being born again and they conclude that because OT believers were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit seeing that the temple was not the human body but a building, then they were not born again.
And this is where the error lies. Believers today are indeed permanently indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. The Godhead takes up residence in the believer and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit sanctifies the body that the temple/human body is made holy and acceptable for such residence. But it is NOT the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that qualifies a person as being "born again".
When a person believes the gospel, and all men from all ages were given the gospel in varying forms, either prophetically, as a witness or historically, that person's human spirit is what is born again. They are resurrected spiritually so that they can understand spiritual phenomena. It is the spiritual death of a man that makes a man spiritually dead. He is made alive spiritually. His human spirit is resurrected and while it may indeed be the function of the Holy Spirit in all ages at all times to be the proprietor of this function with respect to the Trinity and the varying ministries of the Godhead, this does not necessitate his performing the unique church age function of permanently indwelling to form a temple for the Godhead in order to resurrect the human spirit in each believer during all ages, from Adam onward.
How else could men understand spiritual truths during any other time? They had to be born again and made alive spiritually and illuminated just as we are. That again does not necessitate the unique church age ministry of permanent indwelling to form a residence for the Godhead.
