Are Christian believers in America being persecuted?

[LadyEagle]

The persecution of believers in America is something that most religious activists agree is happening more and more. A spokesman for the National Clergy Council says that whether its unfavorable court decisions or actual physical attacks against Christians, the church is being persecuted today like never before in the United States.

Rob Schenck of the National Clergy Council says "hate speech" against Christians is growing and that those who take their faith seriously are being vilified. He cites hate speech against
believers that can be seen and heard every day.

"The pejorative use of words
like 'fundamentalist,' 'Christian and 'religious
extremist'...associating strong religious belief with being narrow-minded, bigoted, or hateful...even blaming nationally known Christian leaders for heinous crimes because of their
strongly held moral convictions.

http://www.truthcast.com/agape/000629christians_targets_of_persecutio.htm

 

[Big John Trapper]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
[QB]

The persecution of believers in America is something that most religious activists agree is happening more and more.

Nonsense.

What is happening is that christians are finding out that their privileged status is being more frequently and forcefully challenged.

Any group that is has been used to getting its way for decades is naturally going to scream bloody murder when that privileged position is threatened.

 

[Big John Trapper]

Oh, and EL911: I've just returned from vacation, so I didn't get to address the errors you made about homosexuality, mental disease, etc. in your other post. However, I will note that the "reference" that you said jaycrwu provided actually refuted your point - it did not support it. jaycrwu's post was an exercise in irony for you - but it flew over your head, evidently.

Here's a quote from the link:
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html#mentalillness

Is Homosexuality a Mental Illness or Emotional Problem?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.

In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting the removal.

For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.

 

[Mike McK]

Oh, please!

Christians in America don't even have a clue what persecution is.

Go ask a Christian in China, the Sudan or Saudi Arabia if they think we're persecuted.

To say that we're persecuted is a slap in the face to the millions who have died for the cause of Christ.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

 

[donnA]

Go ask a Christian in China, the Sudan or Saudi Arabia if they think we're persecuted

I think that is confusing whether or not there is persecutions, with the severity of the persecutions.

When someone is not hired for a job because they are christian and go to church is persecution. Even if it is not to the death, or as severe as christians in other countries suffer.
This has happened to both my sons.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by katie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Go ask a Christian in China, the Sudan or Saudi Arabia if they think we're persecuted

I think that is confusing whether or not there is persecutions, with the severity of the persecutions.

When someone is not hired for a job because they are christian and go to church is persecution. Even if it is not to the death, or as severe as christians in other countries suffer.
This has happened to both my sons.</font>[/QUOTE]Katie,

While I'm sorry to hear about your sons, that's still not persecution.

Mike

 

[Mike McK]

It is illegal but I think they'd have much better success with the ACLJ .

The ACLJ seems to be much more sympathetic to religious liberty cases.

http://www.aclj.org

Mike

 

[Big John Trapper]

Originally posted by katie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Go ask a Christian in China, the Sudan or Saudi Arabia if they think we're persecuted

I think that is confusing whether or not there is persecutions, with the severity of the persecutions.

When someone is not hired for a job because they are christian and go to church is persecution. Even if it is not to the death, or as severe as christians in other countries suffer.
This has happened to both my sons.</font>[/QUOTE]1. Let's hear the circumstances.

2. I assume that you would be against the religious test that was used by the a public school board in Mississippi.

A summary:
http://www.pfaw.org/issues/religious_freedom/herdahl.html

Lisa Herdahl's Struggle for Religious Liberty in Pontotoc County, Mississippi

In the fall of 1993, Lisa Herdahl, her husband and six children moved from Wisconsin to the small community of Ecru, Mississippi, near Tupelo. Since then, her five oldest children (ranging in age from 5 to 15) have attended the only public school available, a K-12 institution run by Pontotoc County. For decades, the school had authorized the recitation of Bible verses and Christian prayers over the school intercom at the close of official morning announcements and the recitation (particularly in the lower grades) by students of an organized "blessing" in their classrooms prior to going to lunch, with teacher involvement, and had conducted religious Bible instruction as part of the official school curriculum.
Lisa Herdahl, who is a Christian and is raising her children as Christians, spent a year in a futile effort to convince the school officials to cease these unconstitutional practices. As a result of her opposition to those practices, she and her children have been harassed and ostracized in their small community, and have been falsely accused of being atheists and devil-worshippers. Several specific instances have received a good deal of attention; for example, a teacher placed earphones on seven-year-old Jason's head to prevent him from hearing prayers, which caused even more teasing and humiliation. The situation for the children was exacerbated by the fact that, in order to avoid the unconstitutional Bible instruction, Lisa's young children had to stand up in front of their classmates and leave their classrooms. After getting nowhere with the school board, Lisa Herdahl sought legal help.

That's enough to give you an idea of the issue at hand. Here is what the court wrote about one particularly flagrant violation of the Constitution - a "Bible class" that the local school district was trying to sneak into the public school:

1. Secular Purpose Prong

The Bible class clearly lacks a secular purpose. From its inception by the local Protestant churches, the aim of the instruction has been overtly religious in nature. The District's profession of educational instruction in this relevant time period of world history is belied by the evidence presented to the court at trial. First, the fact that the District contracted out the teaching of this class indicates an attempt at avoiding the constitutional ramifications of this instruction. If the class were truly secular, there should be no necessity of disassociating itself (and thus the state) with such a practice. The District cannot accomplish through others what it is forbidden to establish itself.

Second, the selection procedures for the Bible teachers indicate a religious agenda unquestioned by the District. As the acknowledged "sponsor" of the Bible classes, the Bible Committee seeks out prospective Bible teachers for the public schools, interviews and then selects them, using religious criteria that have resulted in a teaching staff of Christian teachers who teach the Bible, and are expected to teach the Bible, from a fundamentalist religious perspective as the inerrant word of God. When a Bible teaching vacancy occurs, it is the Bible Committee, not the school district, that initiates the hiring process, and it does so not by an open job search or through advertisements, but by personally soliciting names of potential teachers from the present and former Bible teachers. The District is well aware of this religious testing, and has to date not turned away any selected Bible teacher. Prospective Bible teachers are interviewed by the Bible Committee, and their religious beliefs and "salvation experience" of the candidates and their "personal spiritual background [and] beliefs about the Bible" are routine topics during job interviews. The chairman of the Bible Committee, Mr. Olen White, stated at trial that he personally believed that it was important for the prospective teacher to consider the Bible as literally true. It is also his understanding that the teachers who are currently teaching the Bible class at the Center are teaching their classes from the perspective that the Bible is literally true and without error. According to White, the Bible classes involve "reaching children for the Lord." In a thank you letter to participating local churches, White stated that "[w]ithout the help of the churches, the Bible program could not exist. Continue to pray for this work with our young people. They need all the Christian influence that can be given." Reverend William Sims, a pastor of a local church and member of the Bible Committee, testified that he expects that a teacher of a Bible course would teach the Bible as the inerrant word of God. He further stated that if it came to his attention that one of the Bible teachers was teaching the Bible as if it were capable of error or that one of the teachers was not of the Christian faith he would not want the Committee to continue to fund that person's salary. This religious testing, plainly imposed on prospective Bible teachers, alone makes the practice an unlawful intrusion into the school curriculum. Wiley v. Franklin, 468 F. Supp. 133, 144, 150 (E.D. Tenn. 1979) (citing Torasco v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 81 S. Ct. 1680, 6 L. Ed. 2d 982 (1961)).

So my question is: are you in favor of the behavior described above, in the court document?

 

[donnA]

1. Let's hear the circumstances [/QUOTEOf what them not being hired? Well when my oldest one wanted to work at a cave tour (tourist place) , where my brother also worked at the time, he was told by his buddy, the owner/operator, that he didn't like people who went to church.

Now the funny part is that His wife, daughter, and step daughter are all members of our church, and he on occasion (when the youngest one is preforming in a children's play or musical) comes too our church.

I'm sorry the rest of you post, if it was to me, has confused me.

 

[donnA]

Do you not believe there are varying degrees and forms of persecution? Or must everyone persecuted be killed?
What do you define as persecution?

 

[Big John Trapper]

Originally posted by katie:
Well when my oldest one wanted to work at a cave tour (tourist place) , where my brother also worked at the time, he was told by his buddy, the owner/operator, that he didn't like people who went to church.

Now the funny part is that His wife, daughter, and step daughter are all members of our church, and he on occasion (when the youngest one is preforming in a children's play or musical) comes too our church.

Sounds like maybe your son's buddy was wrong, then. The boss' whole family is involved in church, right? Then clearly the statement that he "doesn't like people who go to church" can't be true.

Maybe he doesn't like your particular kind of church. Could that be it? What about your son's buddy - does that buddy go to church?

I'm sorry the rest of you post, if it was to me, has confused me.

It was a court case about a school in Mississippi that was hiring people based upon their religion. I was curious what you thought about that practice.

 

[tulpje]

Ok! well I agree. I am a student at a local community college and last semester I had to take poly sci 111. and My instructor and everyone in my class was extremely liberal and it made me to be the odd ball. I tell you what... I had to stick up for Jesus more than once in that class because they were putting him down. if I didn't that would not make me a good Christian"Whoever acknowleges me before men, I will also acknowlege before my Father in heaven."(Matthew 10:32)And I was hated and even threatend. I was really afraid.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Sounds like maybe your son's buddy was wrong, then. The boss' whole family is involved in church, right? Then clearly the statement that he "doesn't like people who go to church" can't be true.

John -

Do you really need to argue every semantic and statement to make a point? You asked for the circumstances and Katie provided them. Your post is obviously just an attempt to pick a fight and I don't appreciate it in my forum.

There are plenty of more concrete issues for you to debate in this forum without deliberately trying to agitate another member over a vernacular that you, as a West Virginian, can certainly understand. It is not showing your intelligence, it is showing your attitude.

My hope is that Katie will not even respond to your adolescent bullying.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by katie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Go ask a Christian in China, the Sudan or Saudi Arabia if they think we're persecuted

I think that is confusing whether or not there is persecutions, with the severity of the persecutions.

When someone is not hired for a job because they are christian and go to church is persecution. Even if it is not to the death, or as severe as christians in other countries suffer.
This has happened to both my sons.</font>[/QUOTE]Where on a job application is the section listed religion? He didn't put this in his resume' did he?

 

[Big John Trapper]

Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Sounds like maybe your son's buddy was wrong, then. The boss' whole family is involved in church, right? Then clearly the statement that he "doesn't like people who go to church" can't be true.

John -

Do you really need to argue every semantic and statement to make a point? You asked for the circumstances and Katie provided them. Your post is obviously just an attempt to pick a fight and I don't appreciate it in my forum.

There are plenty of more concrete issues for you to debate in this forum without deliberately trying to agitate another member over a vernacular that you, as a West Virginian, can certainly understand. It is not showing your intelligence, it is showing your attitude.

My hope is that Katie will not even respond to your adolescent bullying.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator</font>[/QUOTE]Katie said that her son was denied employment based upon church affiliation. I find that hard to believe, given the evidence she has presented so far.

I find it far more likely that her son was denied employment for some other reason - perhaps he simply wasn't qualified. When people lose jobs, promotions, scholarships, etc. they often rationalize that loss by making it a defect in the *other* person - "I didn't get the job because I'm black", or "I didn't get the job because they don't like women."

Or perhaps her son had a reputation from other employers or word-of-mouth, such as a habit of nonstop evangelization of coworkers in the workplace. That would be a more likely reason to be denied employment, than for merely being affiliated with a church. I find that hypothesis more believable, in light of the employer's family was church-going. And that idea would also square up (somewhat) with the reason that her son's buddy gave. I've been around people like that - people who thought that the workplace was just another "mission field" and they let their zeal get in the way of doing their job. My father (who was a deputy sheriff in W Va) had to deal with another deputy sheriff who was a classic example of this problem. In fact, he would kneel and pray at an accident scene first, before dealing with the wounded passengers or the damaged property. As you can imagine, at an accident scene every second counts. This religious behavior became an obstacle in performing his job and a safety hazard as well.

That's why I asked her about the son's buddy (who already worked there) - if that friend was *also* a church-goer, then it would prove that he doesn't discriminate against christians at all. Do I know what the real motive of the employer was? No. But in order to accept her claim of discrimination, I have to ask questions. And if she (or her son) decide to get an attorney or contact the ACLU, they'll be asking the very same questions that I am asking now - trust me.

So as you can see, I have reasons for what I ask. But if you are seriously trying to cut down on posts that are nothing but attempts to "pick a fight", I can suggest several dozen other such posts (and particular posters) for you to focus on. There's been a lot of slander and rudeness by so-called christians around here that moderators have failed to address.

[ March 26, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Big John Trapper ]

 

[donnA]

Clint, your right. I'm not going to.

 

[Morat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't something like 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christian? Including, I believe, every federal elected official and most of the state ones. And virtually every appointed position?

If Christians are being persecuted, it seems rather obvious that it's Christians who are persecuting them.

Taking Katie's story at face value, her Christian son was rejected for being Christian by his Christian boss.

I'm not sure it's persecution when you're doing it to yourself. I'm not sure what it is.

 

[LadyEagle]

smoke_eater:
Oh, please!

Christians in America don't even have a clue what persecution is.

Go ask a Christian in China, the Sudan or Saudi Arabia if they think we're persecuted.

To say that we're persecuted is a slap in the face to the millions who have died for the cause of Christ.

Mike

Rebuke duly noted by EL. You are correct.

But could not verbal "persecution" eventually lead to more than that at some future point?

 

[bushprsdnt]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;My hope is that Katie will not even respond to your adolescent bullying.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

The purpose of the forum is discussion. John's comments hardly reach the level of bullying.

 

[davesacre]

Originally posted by tulpje:
Ok! well I agree. I am a student at a local community college and last semester I had to take poly sci 111. and My instructor and everyone in my class was extremely liberal and it made me to be the odd ball. I tell you what... I had to stick up for Jesus more than once in that class because they were putting him down. if I didn't that would not make me a good Christian"Whoever acknowleges me before men, I will also acknowlege before my Father in heaven."(Matthew 10:32)And I was hated and even threatend. I was really afraid.

Well, at my school, a Tech school, things are nearly the opposite, at least in my lower-level courses. One mention of not believing in a god nearly makes the whole room cringe. I don't even bring up my religious beliefs because it seems that everyone I know is a Christian.

The issue isn't just between the Christians and non-Christians. It's between almost all groups of somethings and non-somethings. The religious persecution even takes place within the Christian community. Christians love to persecute each other. Perhaps the most of the Christian persecutions actually come from within the church. Wouldn't that be an interesting scenario? That's where I see Christians receiving the most fighting and name-calling.