Are Judaism and Christianity one Religion

[BobRyan]

I think you are confusing the death angel bypassing those covered by the blood and the parting of the red sea with The Gift of Eternal Life.

Those who passed through the red sea still died. Do you call this the gospel Bob?

1 Cor 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

In Heb 11 it is the OT saints that are said to be "the great cloud of witnesses" who are fully accepted by God "by faith" found pleasing to God. The list includes Enoch who was taken to heaven "without seeing death". Elijah taken without seeing death. Moses is seen in Matt 17 in full fellowship with Elijah that was taken directly to heaven OT.

There is no doubt about salvation in the OT for the saints of the OT.

The Christ (greek term in NT for the word Messiah) the scriptures used by the NT saints - is the Messiah of the OT text.

My argument from 1Cor 10 is that Christ was the ONE foundation stone "the ROCK in 1Cor 10" of the OT. Paul argues this from a spiritual context in 1Cor 10. And as the Heb 11 list shows - not all OT saints rebelled against God.

1 Corinthians 10

1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (Petra) which followed them; and the rock (Petra) was Christ.[/b]

In Christ,

Bob

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. Yes, one God but let's not leave out the trinity which is a Christian not a Jewish belief.

In Mark 7 Christ said that the religious leaders of the Jews made void the commandments of God in favor of the traditions of men - teaching tradition "as doctrine". There is no question that they invented a set of false doctrines just as the RCC did in the NT.

But the question is - does scripture ITSELF deny the Trinity OT or NT? I would argue that it does not.

2. God chooses a people which are called Jews. He is their God and they are His people. He gives his people the hope of a Messiah. God then sends the second part of the Godhead whose first mission was to save the Jews. Those Jews who received him are called Judeo Christians or Christians and not Jews.

God the Son - Jesus Christ IS the God of the OT "Before Abraham I AM" said Christ in John 8.

He takes to Himself the title of God as given to Abraham.

In John 1 - John states that no one has seen God the Father at any time -- in the OT when YHWH is SEEN -- it is Christ Himself!

3. There is only one Gospel. Those who believe in it are called Christians because they are followers of Christ.

In the general resurrection of 1Thess 4 "The Dead in Christ rise first" that includes the saints of all ages.

The "followers of Messiah" are stated in Greek as "the followers of Christ" it is the SAME person identified using the words of two different languages. Christ (Christos) is simply Greek for Messiah.

Christ's salvation is via a new covenant or NT and not via the OT

The NT text of scripture is not the New Covenant it merely speaks about it just as does the OT. In fact when the NT speaks of the New Covenant it QUOTES the OT! See Heb 8 and 10. The New Covenant is the ONE Gospel by which all saints are saved in all of time - both OT and NT ages.

Jeremiah speaks of the New Covenant and it is HE that is quoted in Heb 8 speaking of the New Covenant and the forgiveness it offers.

Elijah taken to heaven and "really forgiven"

Enoch taken to heaven and "really forgiven"

The saints of Heb 11 not only "really forgiven" but also "found pleasing to God" -- which is not possible apart from Christ.

In the Gospels "pre-cross" Christ said "your sins ARE forgiven" showing forgiveness full and complete in ADVANCE of the Cross.

ONE Gospel in BOTH OT and NT. By grace saved through faith -- is the ONLY way saints get to heaven OT and NT.

ONE way to God -- via the Messiah (Christ in Greek) in both OT and NT.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Le Buick,​

This might help, it is taken from "Bible Readings From the Home" which is a non-copyrighted old Bible Study Book basically mostly all Bible verses:​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]The Gospel in the Old Testament[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]In what condition did the sin of Adam place the human family?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]How does the offer of salvation come to all?[/FONT]​

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"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Is there any other way to obtain salvation?[/FONT]​

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"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Through what are men saved?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]By what were the patriarchs to receive the promises of God?[/FONT]​

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"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all," Romans 4:16.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]What did the prophets teach concerning justification through faith? [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Through whom did the prophets teach should come the remission of sins?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Did Abraham possess this faith?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4:3.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." John 8:56.​

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]How did Abraham have a view of Christ's day?[/FONT]​

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"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." Galatians 3:8.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Whose children are all that believe?[/FONT]​

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"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]What did faith in Christ enable Moses to do?[/FONT]​

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"By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward." Hebrews 11:24-26.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]From what source did the children of Israel draw spiritual life?[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
"And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:2-4.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Where must the gospel hope have been learned, before the New Testament was written?[/FONT]​

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"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" John 5:46,47.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Who inspired the Old Testament writers in their declarations?[/FONT]​

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"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:10,11.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]From what did Christ preach the gospel to His disciples when on the way to Emmaus?[/FONT]​

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"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." Luke 24:27.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Who is both author and finisher of the plan of salvation?[/FONT]​

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"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2.
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[billwald]

Rabbibical Judaism is Phariseeism renamed and Christianity is Paulism renamed.

 

[LeBuick]

You are presenting God's Word - the Scriptures used by NT saints as a "Christless religion".

Christ said of the scriptures "These are they that speak of ME".

In 1Peter 1 -- Peter says that the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow are the subject of the OT text of scripture.

In Acts 17 we are told that Paul preached Christ from the OT.

In Heb 4:1-2 "We have had the Gospel preached to us JUST as they ALSO".

Rather than a Christless religion that is not the same as the NT Religion - the NT authors present the SCRIPTURE as the TEXT of their religion.

Your view is consistent with the way many people divide up scripture today - but I am arguing that it is inconsistent with both the OT and NT text.

In Christ,

Bob

I see your point which may be right, my view may be inconsistent when considering both OT and NT. If you are right, why are the Jews, the Orthodox and main body of Jews, still looking for the Messiah to come?

You say their Faith and Hope was the same as Abraham, Moses and Enoch which in your words was the Gospel. The object of the Gospel was made manifest and fullfilled the promise made by God. This happened more than 2K years ago yet they are still looking for his comming. It may have been the same Gospel (I need to look further into this statement) but the Gospel only has power to those that believe (Rom 1:16). If I am still looking forward toward something that has come, is my faith and hope valid and in the proper Gospel?

Analogy... I am a drowning man but I was promised by the Captian that a rescue ship would be by to save me. I get in the water and put all my faith and hope in the coming of the rescue ship. The Captian of the rescue ship sends A guy in a little row boat and tells me he is sent for my salvation. I tell him to go ahead and pass me by because I was promised a rescue ship and not a row boat. The guy in the boat goes back to the rescue ship and tells the Captian he found me, but I refused or rejected his salvation for what ever reason.

I am still drowning and looking for the rescue ship, however the ship has come and gone and I rejected the salvation of the rescue ship. Are my hopes or is my faith still valid? To me, the drowning man YES!

You basically say the OT was a promise of a Messiah and Salvation. That Salvation has come and gone yet they are still clinging to the Old promise of salvation.

Now read Heb 8:8-9. Verse 8 said the Lord will make a new convenant but look carefully at verse 9, it begins with, "Not according to the coveneant I made wit their fathers..." The new Covenant is not an addition or continuation of the old covenenant, it is New. It is completely new from foundation to fullfillment.

So what does this mean for Abraham, Moses and Enoch. It means though they we living under the old covenant, they had enouh faith in the new that it was counted for righteousness. Was this righteousness the same as being born again? I still believe they had to receive Christ. I believe they received him on the second day Christ spent in the gave when he went to hell and preached. This I can't prove with certianty or with scripture but it is what I believe.

 

[BobRyan]

I see your point which may be right, my view may be inconsistent when considering both OT and NT. If you are right, why are the Jews, the Orthodox and main body of Jews, still looking for the Messiah to come?

A couple of points as we go into this further.

#1. Though I do not agree with the position you have taken - I want to be very explicit in saying that your conclusion IS the logical conclusion for what passes today for a popular belief in OT=OC for Jewish religion, vs , NT=NC for Christians.

You have stated the argument well and your conclusion is perfect. But the problem is you have adopted some of the popular assumptions which turn out to be in error.

#2. Given the statement of Chrsit PRECross as a Jew speaking to Jews about the OT "IN vain do they worship me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" Mark 7 -- we must never equate the errors of the Jews with the scripture of God AS IF they were successful in editing and repurposing scripture itself - bending it to their own humanist goals such that now God must conceed some part of His Word -- to them.

The Jews reject the Messiah of the OT text and inserting their own traditions in place of faith in God's Word - seek today "another Messiah".

that is not God's doing. He is not the author of their errors.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You say their Faith and Hope was the same as Abraham, Moses and Enoch which in your words was the Gospel. The object of the Gospel was made manifest and fullfilled the promise made by God. This happened more than 2K years ago yet they are still looking for his comming.

Very true. They have abandoned Abraham "who saw my day and was glad" John 8:54-59

They have turned aside from the Gospel "Preached before hand to Abraham" Gal 3:7.

The were cast out of the vine (Rom 11 ) the SAME vine into which WE are grafted in.

It may have been the same Gospel (I need to look further into this statement) but the Gospel only has power to those that believe (Rom 1:16). If I am still looking forward toward something that has come, is my faith and hope valid and in the proper Gospel?

I agree with you 100% that what the Jews do today is "practice another religion". But their error is not God's

The OT does not support them - does not define and promote their error.

Analogy... I am a drowning man but I was promised by the Captian that a rescue ship would be by to save me. I get in the water and put all my faith and hope in the coming of the rescue ship. The Captian of the rescue ship sends A guy in a little row boat and tells me he is sent for my salvation. I tell him to go ahead and pass me by because I was promised a rescue ship and not a row boat.
...

Agreed - that is failure to follow the plan laid out by the savior.

My argument is that the guy that is drowning and sees the rescue ship and gets in and is thankful -- is showing faith in the same rescue ship both before and after being rescued.

LeBuick
You basically say the OT was a promise of a Messiah and Salvation. That Salvation has come and gone yet they are still clinging to the Old promise of salvation.

Some of them did reject it - as Paul points out in Romans 9 but others accepted. ALL of the Apostles were Jews!

Almost all converts to Christianity were Jews until around the time Stephen was stoned.

They did not see themselves as "starting a new religion that had faith in the Messiah" -- they simply said "Hey -- Good News! Jesus Christ IS our long awaited Messiah".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

LeBuick
Now read Heb 8:8-9. Verse 8 said the Lord will make a new convenant but look carefully at verse 9, it begins with, "Not according to the coveneant I made wit their fathers..." The new Covenant is not an addition or continuation of the old covenenant, it is New. It is completely new from foundation to fullfillment.

The Old Covenant - the "Covenant of Death" as Paul defines it in 2Cor 3 is of the form "Obey and Live" as Paul states in Gal 3.

The Old Covenant had no power to forgive sins - all it does it point out what IS Sin. In the Garden of Eden the Old Covenant was in full effect. Adam and Eve survived under it because they were created perfect. But the conditions were "Obey and Live". This means NOBODY could be saved under the Old Covenant -- for it is the covenant according to Romans 3 that tells us all that we are all guilty and deserve the second death. "Obey and Live" and as it turns out "we are all sinners" guilty of transgression not "perfect obedience".

The NEW Covenant - is the Gospel - Paul calls it the Covenant of "Life" and of the Spirit.

IT is the one that "promises both adoption and forgivenss and the New Creation" as we see in Heb 8 and 10.

there is NO other solution to the sin problem -- and there never has been any other solution.

The OT Sanctuary services illustrates in visual model forms the various truths of the New Covenant. But because earthly OT sanctuary is a form put in place pre-cross pointing to the antitype Heavenly Sanctuary service -- it becomes a "symbol" a type of the Old Covenant as compared to the New Covenant.

To put it another way - nobody is saved under the Old Covenant and nobody is lost under the New Covenant.

LeBuick
So what does this mean for Abraham, Moses and Enoch. It means though they we living under the old covenant, they had enouh faith in the new that it was counted for righteousness.

#1. The Bible never says "Moses lived under the Old Covenant" when speaking of the rule to "obey and live" because although it did condemn him (and all of us) HE CHOSE the New Covenant way of salvation as the solution to the problem that the Old Covenant showed him to have (and shows all of us to have).

Was this righteousness the same as being born again? I still believe they had to receive Christ.

To argue that the OT saints of Heb 11 could have lived born-again saintly lives "of faith" WITHOUT being again is to grossly under-estimate the sinful nature, the depravity of man and the solution God gives us in the Bible. Christ said to Nicodemus PRE-CROSS "Are you a teacher in Israel (a bible teacher) and yet you do not know these things???" speaking of the doctrine that all must be born-again to be saved. Christ did not say "SOMEDAY the Spirit of God WILL move upon hearts and cause them to be born again" He stated it as current already established Bible fact PRE-CROSS!

Your position is rock solid when it comes to what is popularly taught today - but it does not hold up to scripture when it comes to the sinful nature and our need of the new birth in THIS life in order to lead the Heb 11 saintly - spirit-filled walk of faith. Popular Bible teachers today promote views that are completely consistent with what you have stated - but they are debunked by scripture itself. God's Word is constantly in conflict with the stories and traditions of man just as it was in Mark 7 with the Jews.

I believe they received him on the second day Christ spent in the gave when he went to hell and preached. This I can't prove with certianty or with scripture but it is what I believe.

No text in all of scripture says that all OT saints that died - received Christ after dying -- for "It is appointed unto mankind ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment" Heb 9 says clearly.

No getting saved, or born again or fixed-up after death.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Many people mistakenly assume that the SDA distinctive is the Sabbath or acceptance of the Lev 11 prohibition about not eating rats, cats, dogs, bats and human flesh or decaying carcasses etc... but the real "distinctive" is this concept of "ONE Gospel in all of time -- NOT TWO"

I have brought this up several times on this board and each time someone does come around to seeing what a foundational sea change this is as compared to a two-gospel system based on simply accepting many of the popular doctrines accepted today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

#2. Given the statement of Chrsit PRECross as a Jew speaking to Jews about the OT "IN vain do they worship me teaching for doctrine the commandments of men" Mark 7 -- we must never equate the errors of the Jews with the scripture of God AS IF they were successful in editing and repurposing scripture itself - bending it to their own humanist goals such that now God must conceed some part of His Word -- to them.

I never heard this take on this, interesting.

Mark 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You’re saying Christ is speaking of himself each time he says me? Is that what you’re saying?

In Isaiah 29:13, the verse being quoted, is referring to God the Father the number 1 of the Godhead. I understand your other implications regarding the “Commandments of Men” but salvation is via the Son the number 2 in the Godhead. The verse says me and Christ is quoting the verse.

Very true. They have abandoned Abraham "who saw my day and was glad" John 8:54-59

You are saying Abraham physically and/or literally saw the day of Christ. I believe he saw and believed in it as a vision or from the promises made by God. I know the Bible is not clear on how but we do know this;

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Abraham did look forward to a day when God would provide himself an offering. This was his looking forward to a messiah. I can also say Christ knowing all things, knew the heart of Abraham but I don’t take that verse to mean Abraham looked from his present place and saw Christ being born. He rejoiced in the hope of the Messiah. Also, can we say Christ day had come since he had not died when Jn 8:56 was quoted? There was no salvation until Christ was risen.

They have turned aside from the Gospel "Preached before hand to Abraham" Gal 3:7.

This verse supports what I’ve been saying. The Jews believed one must be a Jew before they could become a Christian. Their argument was that to be a Christian a person had to first become a Jew, a descendant of Abraham, and subsequently obey the Jewish laws. We know the foundation of Jewish salvation theology or what you call the OT Gospel was the concept of being a "descendant of Abraham" automatically made you one of God’s people. We know this is not so (Ruth), everyone must accept Christ him or herself. Ruth accepted God.

Now keep in mind, these are not the “Jews” but rather the Judeo Christians or the ones who converted to Christianity by accepting Christ. In other words, these are Christians Paul is addressing. Paul’s conclusion is it’s not necessary for a person to become a Jew in order to be a Christian. Just as Abraham was/is saved by his faith, each one of us is also saved by his or her faith. Belief is the first and only step to salvation. This is the Gospel and is what the whole thread is about. Christianity is not Judaism. Judaism is a religion that says one is saved by inheritance or because of a promise to their Fathers. That’s Man’s belief and Man’s religion. The Gospel of Christianity (and true Judaism) says YOU as an individual must BELIEVE! Which I know you concur because;

I agree with you 100% that what the Jews do today is "practice another religion". But their error is not God's

The OT does not support them - does not define and promote their error.

 

[LeBuick]

My argument is that the guy that is drowning and sees the rescue ship and gets in and is thankful -- is showing faith in the same rescue ship both before and after being rescued.

Correct, and when the rescue ship is the Old Ship of Zion then you are a Christian because Christ Jesus is the Captain. You just have to get on board if you want to see Jesus. We’ll deal with this more later(*).

Some of them did reject it - as Paul points out in Romans 9 but others accepted. ALL of the Apostles were Jews!

Now we’re cooking with Crisco, WERE Jews.

They did not see themselves as "starting a new religion that had faith in the Messiah" -- they simply said "Hey -- Good News! Jesus Christ IS our long awaited Messiah".

Correct(*), but remember Jesus said he wouldn’t put new wine in an old wine skin. In other words, The Messiah wouldn’t place this salvation, this manifestation of the hope and the fulfillment of the promise on that old mess and confusion that was created and still being passed off as Judaism. He said if you put new wine in an old wine skin the container will burst and it will spoil the flavor of the new wine with the ruminants of the old. No Sir, New Wine gets a new charred oak barrel.

Sorry to get so dramatic, if he had built Christianity on the Jewish foundation, Jews especially would have continued to believe and interweave Jewish concepts into the pure free grace of Christianity. They would have put themselves back under the law and turned the free gift of Christian Salvation into a works based religion. This is evident by reading the book of Hebrews. This is exactly what happened and is what Christ would not allow in his Church. The writer of Hebrews is telling them this is not Judaism 201, this is Christianity 101. Don’t bring what you did before and see how you can work it in here, here is Christianity.

In the Garden of Eden the Old Covenant was in full effect. Adam and Eve survived under it because they were created perfect.

I disagree; the law had yet to be given.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Adam had a law but it was not the Levitical Law.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But you are correct about obey and live which is part of any blood covenant.

 

[LeBuick]

The OT Sanctuary services illustrates in visual model forms the various truths of the New Covenant. But because earthly OT sanctuary is a form put in place pre-cross pointing to the antitype Heavenly Sanctuary service -- it becomes a "symbol" a type of the Old Covenant as compared to the New Covenant.

Interesting, scriptures please…

#1. The Bible never says "Moses lived under the Old Covenant" when speaking of the rule to "obey and live" because although it did condemn him (and all of us) HE CHOSE the New Covenant way of salvation as the solution to the problem that the Old Covenant showed him to have (and shows all of us to have).

You confuse me here, I thought the law was given through Moses and he observed them as all of Israel did;

Deuteronomy 6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

Many people mistakenly assume that the SDA distinctive is the Sabbath or acceptance of the Lev 11 prohibition about not eating rats, cats, dogs, bats and human flesh or decaying carcasses etc... but the real "distinctive" is this concept of "ONE Gospel in all of time -- NOT TWO"

I have brought this up several times on this board and each time someone does come around to seeing what a foundational sea change this is as compared to a two-gospel system based on simply accepting many of the popular doctrines accepted today.

I too believe in one Gospel but when you speak of Lev 11 and the Sabbath, you are referring to the law which was not the Gospel. By your own admission, the law was given to illuminate sin, not to save or make one righteous. Clearly the Gospel is spoken of in the OT but not in all passages or in all situations. The majority of the OT or OC is not the Gospel; it is there to show man the need for the Gospel.

You have not convinced me there is salvation in believing in the coming of the Messiah. I say you have to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of the messiah. I don’t believe Mk 7 is saying Abraham saw Christ before he came EXCEPT if it were in a vision from God. I don’t believe know this for sure.

I will have to respond to “Faith counted as Righteousness” separately.

 

[BobRyan]

I too believe in one Gospel but when you speak of Lev 11 and the Sabbath, you are referring to the law which was not the Gospel.

According to New Covenant Gospel - the Gospel includes "the LAW of God written in the heart" under the New Creation - New Birth (Heb 8 and 10).

to "cut this out of the Gospel" you have to slice up the Gospel.

As I asked about Acts 21 - was Paul being a Jew or a Christian in that caase?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You have not convinced me there is salvation in believing in the coming of the Messiah.

This is key - you are arguing that everyone in the OT was doomed to hell until IN DEATH - WHILE DEAD they got "evangelized".

that is not contained in all of scripture.

Heb 11 - they were ALREADY born-again, new-creations people of faith who "WERE PLEASING TO GOD" according to Heb 11.

that is not possible for the lost - in their lost state.

Enoch taken to heaven - not lost
Elijah taken to heaven - not lost
Moses WITH Elijah (Matt 17) not lost.

And Abraham "Father of the faithful" even in the OT according to Rom 4 -- not "lost.

You argue correctly that the modern popular doctrines don't allow for this OT Gospel to "save" for it is NOT the real saving Gospel. The more popular view is "two religions - two gospels" one that saves and one that does not.

You are giving the correct logical conclusion there - but the popular view is refuted by scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Messiah wouldn’t place this salvation, this manifestation of the hope and the fulfillment of the promise on that old mess and confusion that was created and still being passed off as Judaism.

Is the "mess callled Judaism" God's Mess? Is this what Abraham and Moses practiced?

If not - why continue to equivocate between the Religion of Moses and Abraham - vs the errors of the Jews at the time of Christ???

The subject here is God's Work - God's Authorship, God's Scripture - God's Gospel. You are saying that IT was not sufficient in the OT to actually save.

Paul argues in 2Tim 3:15-17 that the OT scripture IS sufficient IS salvific and the Heb 4:1 view is that the OT Gospel IS the Gospel preached unto "US just as it was to them also"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[LeBuick]

According to New Covenant Gospel - the Gospel includes "the LAW of God written in the heart" under the New Creation - New Birth (Heb 8 and 10).

to "cut this out of the Gospel" you have to slice up the Gospel.

This is only partly correct. Yes, God said he would put his laws in the hearts but the law is not part of the Gospel nor was salvation the reason he was putting it in our hearts.

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The problem with the law is it had faults (takes two for a covenant) and made nothing perfect. I know you were saying Man was the failing part of the law, but it doesn't matter who breaks a blood covanent, broken is broken and no longer in effect.

Enoch taken to heaven - not lost
Elijah taken to heaven - not lost
Moses WITH Elijah (Matt 17) not lost.

And Abraham "Father of the faithful" even in the OT according to Rom 4 -- not "lost.

I know for sure they were not saved by the law or the Old Covenant.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The subject here is God's Work - God's Authorship, God's Scripture - God's Gospel. You are saying that IT was not sufficient in the OT to actually save.

The subject here is Judaism and Christianity is not the same. Christ priesthood was after the order of Melchisedec and not after the priesthood which contained the levitical law.

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

After my studies of today, I don’t even think Abraham was a Jew. The father of the Jews, yes. But he was never under the “law”. Were any of the Patriarchs under the law? I know Jesus was a Jew because of his Father David.

I am saying the law does not save.
I am saying Lev 11 does not save.
I am saying not eating rats has nothing to do with your salvation.
I am also saying none of these are part of the Gospel.

The faith in Jesus is all that will save and everything regarding his attonement on the cross is the Gospel.

 

[Claudia_T]

The Law points us to the Gospel and the Gospel points us back to the Law (if rightly understood)

The gospel calls men to repentance. Repentance of what?--Of sin. And what is sin? -It is the transgression of the law. Therefore the gospel calls men from their transgression back to obedience to the law of God.

Salvation in both the Old and the New Testament dispensation is the same. Christ laid the foundation of the whole Jewish economy. The types and shadows under which the Jews worshipped all pointed forward to Jesus Christ, the Redeemer. The people were saved by faith in a coming Saviour then. It is through faith in Christ that they are justified today.

Satan tries to get men to believe that Christs was to abolish the law. But the law is the standard of righteousness and it defines what a correct character is.

 

[LeBuick]

The Law points us to the Gospel and the Gospel points us back to the Law (if rightly understood)

The gospel calls men to repentance. Repentance of what?--Of sin. And what is sin? -It is the transgression of the law. Therefore the gospel calls men from their transgression back to obedience to the law of God.

Salvation in both the Old and the New Testament dispensation is the same. Christ laid the foundation of the whole Jewish economy. The types and shadows under which the Jews worshipped all pointed forward to Jesus Christ, the Redeemer. The people were saved by faith in a coming Saviour then. It is through faith in Christ that they are justified today.

Satan tries to get men to believe that Christs was to abolish the law. But the law is the standard of righteousness and it defines what a correct character is.

Keep in mind, there was sin before the law. Sin is transgression against God and is not solely based on the law. Israels sin was transgressing against the law.

I didn't say Christ abolished the law, I am saying Christ made his covenant, the new covenant which is not the same as the old, after the order of Melchisedec. It's foundation is on a different priesthood than that of the law.

I do acknowledge the law as being God's word and his moral desire for man. I'm merely saying we don't obey it to be saved, we obey it because we are saved.

Many things contained in the law, Christ made the perfect sacrifice for. Lev 11 continually says it is to Israel. To Moses (the law). To the priesthood (Aaron). To Israel.

Leviticus 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

What about the rest of the world? What about the people who were descendants of those under the priesthood of Melchisedec and not part of the Children of Israel. Were they to obey this law? Melchisedecs priesthood did not end because the levitical priesthood began. Jesus even said, "There are sheep not of this fold". What about them, were they covered by the law?

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Claudia_T]

LeBuick,

I will try and read all the stuff you posted sometime today and answer you. But I just wanted to say that I really like you, you always seem to make posts that are really nice and courteous, etc... I just notice that about you... and appreciate it alot... and like I said I will try today to come and re-read everything and answer


Claudia :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

When I point out that the Gospel was "preached to US JUST as it was to THEM" as Paul said in Heb 4 - you say that Gospel could not actually save and was so different from today that it amounted to "a different religion".

When I point out that the "GOOD NEW" is contained in the New Covenant promises -- in Heb 8

"I will be their God" adoption
"I will forgive their sins" - redemption
"I will write My Laws upon their hearts" - new Creation
"I will be their teacher" - Fellowship

You look at this "GOOD NEWS" and you slice it up - saying that the New Creation aspect to the GOOD NEWS is not really GOOD NEWS.

How do you get to that point?

You are mixing in (equivocating) between the "LAW ALONE" argument of Paul in Rom 3 and Gal 3 -- vs the LAW IN the heart of the Gospel.

The Gospel pays our DEBT that the Law demands.
The Gospel includes FAITH that ESTABLISHES the Law
The Gospel provides the NEW BIRTH writing the LAW on the tablets of the human heart.

Rebellion is slavery to sin against God.

In Christ,

Bob