Are Non-Christians Saved?

[donnA]

How can a non christian be saved? Salvation is only through Jesus, no other way. Being saved means being a christian.

 

[DHK]

[/b]

You may be sincere but dreadfully wrong. One thing you can do, is to find the people who misled you about this, and tell them that they are not very good Christians, if they feel the need to deceive others about their fellow Christians.

How sad. When people try to push other people away from God, they only succeed in removing God from their lives.

Who is deceptive?
Go right to the source.

Whosoevr, therfore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated into the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and through union with visible structure are joined to Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. This joining is effected by the bonds of professed faith, of the sacraments, of ecclesiastical government, and of communion. (Documents of Vatican II, Chapter 2, #14)

Sounds like the Catholic Church is saying that you can't be saved unless you go through the Catholic Church.

 

[Ps104_33]

The Romanists like to have it both ways as usual. They say that "outside the RC church there is no salvation" yet they dont have the guts to tell those that are outside that they are doomed.

 

[amity]

Some folks might ought to actually read the article that was linked to before saying that Catholics believe only Catholics can go to heaven! Never mind that it is on Belief.net. The man who wrote it is now pope, is he not?




At any rate, my original suggestion that there might be non-Christians in heaven was concerning those who die in infancy. Do you believe there will be babies in hell? Of course they never had a chance to hear the gospel preached or accept Christ.... so I guess that clinches it, huh? Too bad....

 

[Linda64]

No Jesus, know hell;
Know Jesus, know heaven!

It's pretty simple. There is no universal Fatherhood of God. If you don't know Christ as your Saviour, you will die in your sins.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amity: At any rate, my original suggestion that there might be non-Christians in heaven was concerning those who die in infancy. Do you believe there will be babies in hell? Of course they never had a chance to hear the gospel preached or accept Christ.... so I guess that clinches it, huh? Too bad....

HP: Egg on my face! I have to admit that when the question was raised I was not even considering infants. Yes. I believe their will be non-Christians in heaven!

I may be slow, but I do catch on.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[The Galatian]

Originally Posted by The Galatian
[/b]

You may be sincere but dreadfully wrong. One thing you can do, is to find the people who misled you about this, and tell them that they are not very good Christians, if they feel the need to deceive others about their fellow Christians.

How sad. When people try to push other people away from God, they only succeed in removing God from their lives.

Who is deceptive?

Looking below, it appears that you are.

Go right to the source.

Quote:
Whosoevr, therfore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her could not be saved.
First, you must remember the "Holy Catholic Church" is all Chrstians, not merely the Roman Catholic Church. This is why most Protestants still accept the Nicene Creed; the Catholic Church includes them, too. But you already knew that, didn't you?

They are fully incorporated into the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and through union with visible structure are joined to Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. This joining is effected by the bonds of professed faith, of the sacraments, of ecclesiastical government, and of communion. (Documents of Vatican II, Chapter 2, #14)
Doesn't say that anyone isn't saved who isn't Roman Catholic, does it? You couldn't find anything by the Roman Catholic Church saying so, so you found something you hoped might be so construed. How sad.

Sounds like the Catholic Church is saying that you can't be saved unless you go through the Catholic Church.

Sounds like you don't like what the Church teaches about non-RC Christians, so you tried to pull one over on us. Didn't work.

Here, the commentary by the Church on Lumen Gentium, from Vatican II:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm

Those of you who spread false stories about your fellow Christians, go and sin no more.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I find it funny and in the same sense sad how these fundy's believe that they're somehow experts in all things Catholic, "...but I was Catholic when I was 5 years old, so I know more..."

It's just as sad that they tend to have monopolized salvation, like God had His hands tied for 1500 years until Martin Luther somehow figured it all out...

 

[annsni]

I feel I know Catholic quite well - went through Catholic school and was adopted into an Irish Catholic family (VERY Catholic). Even though we left the Catholic church when I was young, I still had a lot of exposure through my school years and even now, a couple who have been my best friends since high school are both deeply involved in the church. He's an ordained deacon (was ordained right after my DH was ordained as a minister in our church) and his wife is a cantor at 3 churches in our area.

Anyway, while many may say that those outside the Catholic church are saved, when the Catholic salvation is so closely tied to sacriments, HOW can those outside the church be saved?? There are so many quotes from former popes that only throught the Catholic church can you be saved. It's common knowledge amongst so many Catholics that I know. But then individually, most of them say that they believe that others will go to heaven too (but then again some of these people are getting into the whole universal salvation thing).

So, to say that saying salvation is only found through the Catholc church is a Church teaching is absolutely true.

 

[DHK]

Those of you who spread false stories about your fellow Christians, go and sin no more.

Are you applying that to yourself?

who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and through union with visible structure are joined to Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops

Sorry, that doesn't apply to me any more--a former Catholic. I am not ruled through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops (Ugh!!). I have nothing to do with them. This alone indicates that only those conected with the Catholic Church can be saved. Those outside of its hierarchy are not saved.

 

[The Galatian]

I feel I know Catholic quite well

If you don't even know the fundamental teachings of the Catholic Church, how can you claim to know it at all?

Anyway, while many may say that those outside the Catholic church are saved,

More specifically, as you saw above the Roman Catholic Church states that they can be saved. And you know, I bet they know more about Catholic doctrine than you do. No matter what you want Catholics to believe, they still get to decide.

when the Catholic salvation is so closely tied to sacriments, HOW can those outside the church be saved??

You don't accept Baptism? For Catholics, there is the doctrine of "Baptism by Desire" in which merely accepting God is sufficient. Hence, Jesus told the Good Thief that he would that day be with Him in paradise. Since you missed it the first time, I'll post it again...

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm

There are so many quotes from former popes that only throught the Catholic church can you be saved. It's common knowledge amongst so many Catholics that I know.

You've confused the Catholic church (universal body of Christians) with the Roman Catholic chuch (one denomination of Christians)

But then individually, most of them say that they believe that others will go to heaven too (but then again some of these people are getting into the whole universal salvation thing).

You've confused the fact that all can be saved, with the idea that all will be saved. But by now, hopefully you've read what the Roman Catholic Church says, and will refrain from any further statements that are not true.

 

[The Galatian]

Barbarian suggests:
Those of you who spread false stories about your fellow Christians, go and sin no more.

Are you applying that to yourself?

I don't remember spreading any falsehoods about other Christian denominations, but if you can show me, I'll be pleased to apologize.

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm

Sorry, that doesn't apply to me any more--a former Catholic.

If you sincerely could not find God in the Church, and found Him in whatever denomination you now accept, then you are not lost. The doctrine of "Invincible Ignoraince" (meaning one cannot believe for whatever reason) says that one cannot be condemned to Hell for trying to do God's will.

This alone indicates that only those conected with the Catholic Church can be saved. Those outside of its hierarchy are not saved.

As you just learned, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that one does not have to be a Roman Catholic to be saved. I'm pleased you found God somewhere, and I wouldn't change that for anything. But I'm a bit disappointed that your spiritual state will not yet let you find your peace with your fellow Christians.

 

[Helen]

that's just a whole lot different than what the Bible says, Galatian. It says that there is no other name under heaven other than Christ Jesus by which a man can be saved.

It says that you must believe in Christ for salvation. Christ says He is the way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the Father but through Him.

If your quotes from the religious tolerance site are accurate regarding the current teachings of the RC church, then they are calling themselves liars in the past, for historically if you were not part of the RC church, they condemned you to hell.

Makes me wonder if the RC religion is not trying to position itself to be the head of the coming one world religion....

 

[The Galatian]

that's just a whole lot different than what the Bible says, Galatian.

As I mentioned, Jesus told the Good Thief that a simple act of faith was sufficient. This is the Christian "Baptism of Desire."

It says that there is no other name under heaven other than Christ Jesus by which a man can be saved.

Then you're one with Roman Catholics on that issue. I'm guessing you also accept the reality of Baptism of Desire, since Jesus Himself advocates it.

It says that you must believe in Christ for salvation. Christ says He is the way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the Father but through Him.

Well, I'm pleased you accept that. OK, sarcasm off. That was unkind. Did you see the part I posted about Jesus being the only way? That's what the Catholic Church has always taught. It's in our Bible. We believe it. It's the foundation of our faith, as it is of yours.

If your quotes from the religious tolerance site are accurate regarding the current teachings of the RC church, then they are calling themselves liars in the past, for historically if you were not part of the RC church, they condemned you to hell.

And Protestants did so, too. Luther advocated what later became the "Final Solution" for Jews in Hitler's Germany. And Calvin thought God wanted him to burn people alive, if they disagreed with Calvin's theology. The quote, of course, is from the Roman Catholic Church's explaination of "Lumen Genitum", from Vatican II.

And just so I don't get too holier-than-thou, there are dissidents who have separated themselves from the Roman Catholic Church on just this issue. They hate the idea that you can be saved as much as we can. We have our share of that kind, also. Don't let my bluntness put you off; I mean this to be friendly and open to you and your concerns.

I would be dishonest if I pretended racial hatred and torture were still part of Protestant denominations. So too, is it dishonest to misrepresent what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Don't let such temptations take you; focus on God.

Makes me wonder if the RC religion is not trying to position itself to be the head of the coming one world religion....

You really believe that, Helen? You're a bit prickly, but you aren't dishonest. Let it go. Catholics and Protestants have been bashing each other for too long, mostly as you see here, on false premises. We need to put an end to it.
In God's name, let's put such terrible things aside.

(edited for such tactfulness as this sinner can manage)

 

[DHK]

Now listen again to the words of [Pope] Paul VI. Now this is a document every one of you should have in your homes…called “On Evangelization in the Modern World.” This is what the Pope says: “The commitment of someone newly evangelized cannot remain abstract (‘Oh, I’m a Christian,’ now that’s too abstract)…it must be given concrete and visible form through entry…into the Catholic Church our visible sacrament of salvation.”
“I like saying those words; I’m going to say them again: “Our visible sacrament of salvation!” That’s what the Church is and if that is what the church is,we have to be evangelizing into the church…!
No, you don’t just invite someone to become a Christian, you invite them to become Catholics…Why would this be so important? First of all, there are the seven sacraments, and the Catholic Church has all seven…On our altars we have the body of Christ; we drink the blood of Christ. Jesus is alive on our altars, as offering…We become one with Christ in the Eucharist…
As Catholics we have Mary, and that Mom of ours, Queen of Paradise, is praying for us till she sees us in glory.
As Catholics we have the papacy, a history of popes from Peter to John Paul II…we have he rock upon which Christ did build His Church.
As Catholics –now I love this one—we have purgatory. Thank God! I’m one of those people who would never to the Beatific Vision without it. It’s the only way to go…
[FONT=&quot]So as Catholics…our job is to use this remaining decade evangelizing everyone we can into the Catholic Church, into the body of Christ and into the third millennium of Catholic history.

[/FONT] (“Roman Catholic Doubletalk at Indianapolis ‘90” Foundation, July-Aug. 1990, excerpts from talk by Fr. Tom Forrest to the Roman Catholic Sunday morning training session.)

And Galatian was saying.......

 

[The Galatian]

Barbarian was merely quoting what the Roman Catholic Church says about non Catholics being saved. The official position is that they can be saved as Roman Catholics can.

The quote you posted shows that Roman Catholics differ with Protestants on some things, but as anyone can see, they don't say that Protestants can't be saved. Quite the contrary, as you saw, it is the belief of Roman Catholics and the teaching of our denomination that Protestants can be saved.

I assume you will now leave off your false witness?

 

[Helen]

How can it be false witness when he's quoting the Pope?????

 

[DHK]

Barbarian was merely quoting what the Roman Catholic Church says about non Catholics being saved. The official position is that they can be saved as Roman Catholics can.

The quote you posted shows that Roman Catholics differ with Protestants on some things, but as anyone can see, they don't say that Protestants can't be saved. Quite the contrary, as you saw, it is the belief of Roman Catholics and the teaching of our denomination that Protestants can be saved.

I assume you will now leave off your false witness?

What false witness:

it must be given concrete and visible form through entry…into the Catholic Church our visible sacrament of salvation.”

you don’t just invite someone to become a Christian, you invite them to become Catholics
(Why: that is the only way to salvation of course)

[FONT=&quot]So as Catholics…our job is to use this remaining decade evangelizing everyone we can into the Catholic Church, into the body of Christ and into the third millennium of Catholic history.
(body of Christ = Catholic Church in this context)


[/FONT]

 

[The Galatian]

How can it be false witness when he's quoting the Pope?????

When he misrepresents the Pope's words to try to construe them as a statement that Non-Catholics are not saved, it is the worst kind of false witness.

And yet, he will not accept a direct statement from the Catholic Church that non-Catholics can be saved.

Pretty obvious, um?

 

[The Galatian]

DHK, you have seen from the Roman Catholic Church, a statement that expressly confirms the validity of other denominations, and says they can be saved.

Yet you persist in your false witness.

When you learn to love God more than you hate Roman Catholics, you will accept the truth.

May His grace which heals all things, be with you.