Are Non-Christians Saved?

[DHK]

That IS the topic of this thread. The question is whether those who have not had opportunity to hear the gospel preached may be saved, is it not? YOU have deflected that question with attacks on everyone from Catholics to Muslims. The question is not whether other religions are valid... the question is whether those who are not Christians can be saved!

The question is moot (if not foolish) since an infant cannot choose to be a Christian or non-Christian. He falls into neither category. Like I suggested, start another thread on that topic. Those who hear the gospel must have the ability to hear the gospel (in one way or another), is implicit in the question. Infants do not fall into that category. Use some common sense.

 

[amity]

The question is moot (if not foolish) since an infant cannot choose to be a Christian or non-Christian. He falls into neither category. Like I suggested, start another thread on that topic. Those who hear the gospel must have the ability to hear the gospel (in one way or another), is implicit in the question. Infants do not fall into that category. Use some common sense.

When we are speaking of non-Christians, we are basically speaking of those who have not heard the gospel. Statistics would bear me out on this. If you know of some scripture that puts babies in a separate category from other non-believers, please show us that scripture. I would perhaps agree to place those who have heard the gospel thoroughly and rejected it in a separate category, however. But not babies.

Babies are just one example of God's purpose to save some who do NOT believe the gospel, and I mention them for that reason. If there is a difference between babies and adults who have not heard the gospel please elaborate. Neither can choose or not choose to be a Christian, as you say.

 

[DHK]

When we are speaking of non-Christians, we are basically speaking of those who have not heard the gospel. Statistics would bear me out on this. If you know of some scripture that puts babies in a separate category from other non-believers, please show us that scripture. I would perhaps agree to place those who have heard the gospel thoroughly and rejected it in a separate category, however. But not babies.

Babies are just one example of God's purpose to save some who do NOT believe the gospel, and I mention them for that reason. If there is a difference between babies and adults who have not heard the gospel please elaborate. Neither can choose or not choose to be a Christian, as you say.

I am not going to argue the point. It is a different topic. Start another thread if you want to discuss it.

 

[amity]

Never mind, I have made my point on that subject, and I thank you for calling attention to it in a way that allowed me to elaborate a bit.

If we are not going to talk about babies, who ARE within the parameters of the OP as "non-Christians," then let's also not use it as an excuse to attack Catholics, who aren't "non-Christians".

 

[annsni]

When we are speaking of non-Christians, we are basically speaking of those who have not heard the gospel. Statistics would bear me out on this. If you know of some scripture that puts babies in a separate category from other non-believers, please show us that scripture. I would perhaps agree to place those who have heard the gospel thoroughly and rejected it in a separate category, however. But not babies.

Babies are just one example of God's purpose to save some who do NOT believe the gospel, and I mention them for that reason. If there is a difference between babies and adults who have not heard the gospel please elaborate. Neither can choose or not choose to be a Christian, as you say.

See, I see a big difference between someone who does not have the cognitive ability to choose Christ (infants and the severely mentally disabled) and capable adults who have seen God through His revelation (as per Romans 1). These people CHOOSE (note in the Romans passage "who...suppress the truth", "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God", "Claiming to be wise", "and exchanged the glory of the immortal God") and are WITHOUT EXCUSE. I think going through the whole "what about the tribe in the jungle who have never heard the Gospel" is an excuse. God says they're without excuse.

Again, I go back to the fact that God is right and just. It's not my place to say who's going to heaven or hell - but God DID show us through His Word those who will and will not. It's not ME saying that those without Him will perish - HE said that. But the most important thing for ME to know is - what am I doing to assist in stopping as many as I can from perishing? I know that no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them but He also told us to go and make disciples of all nations. Am I making disciples?? Am I doing all that I can to preach the Gospel and make sure that ALL have heard the Good News?? It's not worth my time to argue who's going and who's not - that's up to God and He's set forth His rules - but it's MY job to obey Him and do my part.

 

[amity]

See, I see a big difference between someone who does not have the cognitive ability to choose Christ (infants and the severely mentally disabled) and capable adults who have seen God through His revelation (as per Romans 1). These people CHOOSE (note in the Romans passage "who...suppress the truth", "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God", "Claiming to be wise", "and exchanged the glory of the immortal God") and are WITHOUT EXCUSE. I think going through the whole "what about the tribe in the jungle who have never heard the Gospel" is an excuse. God says they're without excuse.

Then Ann, can you prove from the Bible that those who DO see God in his creation, or to whom the Father reveals the Son, are also saved? I have a feeling you can, and that is basically all I am saying.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

That is an awful thing to say, but I am not going to reply in kind. So I hope and trust you won't burn in hell for it.

No, it is not true that Muslims pray to Mohammed or anything absurd like that. He was just a prophet. Did OT Jews pray to Isaiah? Similarly, Muslims do not believe that Muhammad is a mediator between man and God.

Really I am ashamed of all of us for knowing so little and castigating so much, and even condemning people to hell in our ignorance! We have created a total straw man, someone to hate and eventually I am sure one day to kill and be killed by if we don't change our views to reflect Christ's love for those folks. Human nature is no different than it ever was.

GE:

You speak in and from ignorance, I'm sorry for you, Amity, your pseudonym despite.

 

[annsni]

Then Ann, can you prove from the Bible that those who DO see God in his creation, or to whom the Father reveals the Son, are also saved? I have a feeling you can, and that is basically all I am saying.

I can't prove that even Billy Graham is saved - although there are plenty of fruits to prove that! I can't PROVE anyone is saved - that's up to God to prove.

Just having God revealed in creation or having Him reveal the Son to people doesn't make them saved. There's something more - there's a "believing" and "receiving" (John 1:12). No where does it say in Scripture that "revealing" makes one saved.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Amity:

" it is not true that Muslims pray to Mohammed or anything absurd like that."

It isn't true? they worship a black stone, a goat being slaughtered, and the blood of it. They worship a direction and place called Mecca and towards Mecca; they worship lust : someone who dies for Islam receives beautiful young women for reward in the after-life. They worship violence, terror and murder. They are idolaters from start to finish, murderers and false prophets; the masters of hypocricy. THEY KNOW HOW TO SMOOTH-TALK THEIR ATROCIOUS RELIGION.

 

[amity]

Amity:

" it is not true that Muslims pray to Mohammed or anything absurd like that."

It isn't true? they worship a black stone, a goat being slaughtered, and the blood of it. They worship a direction and place called Mecca and towards Mecca; they worship lust : someone who dies for Islam receives beautiful young women for reward in the after-life. They worship violence, terror and murder. They are idolaters from start to finish, murderers and false prophets; the masters of hypocricy. THEY KNOW HOW TO SMOOTH-TALK THEIR ATROCIOUS RELIGION.

This is just nonsense. It is true that the Koran teaches that there are perpetual virgins in heaven, though. The rest is disgusting and ridiculous... and frightening.

At any rate, if this thread is not about babies, then it is CERTAINLY not about Islam. It is about the question of whether people who do not subscribe to Christianity might be saved.

Judging by this thread, a Muslim could well "prove" that the Baptist God is a God of hatred. Let's try to be responsible in what we say.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Amity: I did not say babies were "blessed". I said they were "protected".

We have beaten this dead horse for many years on here.

Instead of bringing it up again, why don't you go to the archives and read what has already been posted on the subject?

You have said nothing new. Everything you have said about babies has been said hundreds of times on this board and been explained.

Take the time to look up the answers instead of rehashing old threads...

ge:

I would once again herewith wish to express my gratitude to the Baptists for the Baptist Board, a forum in which it is allowed to express different views from any establishment's. I think it a very Christian gesture.
And I would like to again congratulate them with the efficiency of this forum.

Your post shows its worth.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Amity:
"This is just nonsense. It is true that the Koran teaches that there are perpetual virgins in heaven, though. The rest is disgusting and ridiculous... and frightening."

Ever heard of '9/11'? of 'suicide bomb attacks', etc? Never heard of the motivations of those 'brave ones'? You haven't be frightened enough; it seems you live in a dream-world.

 

[amity]

Amity:
"This is just nonsense. It is true that the Koran teaches that there are perpetual virgins in heaven, though. The rest is disgusting and ridiculous... and frightening."

Ever heard of '9/11'? of 'suicide bomb attacks', etc? Never heard of the motivations of those 'brave ones'? You haven't be frightened enough; it seems you live in a dream-world.

Ever heard of the crusades?

 

[DHK]

Ever heard of the crusades?

The Crusades were Catholic, not Christian. There is a big difference.
Amity I would like to ask you a question.
Your profile says that you are Primitive Baptist.
But in the field for home church you put: "refused."
If you were refused as a Primitive Baptist, then what are you? Are you per chance a Catholic?

 

[amity]

The Crusades were Catholic, not Christian. There is a big difference.
Amity I would like to ask you a question.
Your profile says that you are Primitive Baptist.
But in the field for home church you put: "refused."
If you were refused as a Primitive Baptist, then what are you? Are you per chance a Catholic?

We are not making the distinctions within Islam, why should they be expected to make distinctions within Christianity?

I didn't put "refused" in there. That is the default. I gave my home church info to the record when I joined, but I don't have to make it public anymore than I have to make my house address public. Or that is the way I understand the regs, at least. And no, the church I attend is not at all responsible for my beliefs, they are my own. I lived in the Middle East for about 10 years and did not form the extremely negative impression of Islam that might be derived from the American press. It is a heresy IMO, but it is not idolatry in the sense that Hinduism is, for example.

And yes, most Primitive Baptists do believe that Christ has a people in every nation, kindred, tongue, etc., regardless of nominal religious affiliation. I hear this preached frequently. And no, I have had no connection with Catholicism whatsoever at any point in my life. I think I went to a Catholic wedding once, but it was a long time ago!

I am very disappointed that we preferred to assault other religions on this thread rather than consult our own scriptures and see what they say about the possibility that non-Christians, beginning with Adam, might be saved.

edit - I went back and tried to change the church field to say something besides "refused." I managed to clear it and put in "not revealed" or something similar. I can't change the religious affiliation part or the statement of salvation.

 

[DHK]

We are not making the distinctions within Islam, why should they be expected to make distinctions within Christianity?

I don't.
The RCC was never, is not, and never will be a "Christian" Church. I am not making a distinction within Christianity. The RCC has always been on the outside of Christianity. It is a pagan religion with pagan practices. It does not preach the gospel, but rather a message of works. It is a works based religion. I was raised in the Catholic Church. For 20 years in the Catholic Church I never heard the gospel preached once. It is no more Christian than the Moonies, J.W.'s, Mormons, or any other cult.
For you to bring the crusades into this conversation was just a red herring. It had nothing to do with the conversation on Islam.

 

[amity]

I don't.
The RCC was never, is not, and never will be a "Christian" Church. I am not making a distinction within Christianity. The RCC has always been on the outside of Christianity.

For you to bring the crusades into this conversation was just a red herring. It had nothing to do with the conversation on Islam.

There is no conversation on Islam. This is (supposedly) a conversation about whether non-Christians can be saved or not, remember? We shoulda stuck to scripture for our answers and no need to mention denominations or religions at all.

Secondly, I will dispute that Catholicism is non-Christian. Who were the Christians prior to 1400s, then? the Orthodox? the Cathars? Did Christ let His church die out? and then Christianity was re-discovered with the invention of the printing press? There have always been people who knew and loved the Lord, and for a looooong time many of them were Catholic. And still are.

BTW, I do believe that there was a true church throughout history, and I do not believe it was the Catholic. But the Catholic church, very different from today, was all most people had access to.

 

[BobRyan]

Ever heard of the crusades?

Saladin came in with the point of the sword and attempted to convert all of Europe. The Turks went through the holy land and India etc and at the point of a sword attempted to convert not only the middle East but half of Asia.

Now we see that some Christian Nations made efforts to try and reclaim parts of the Middle East - and failed. That is supposed to be the great "defense" for Islam??

Be serious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[amity]

Saladin came in with the point of the sword and attempted to convert all of Europe. The Turks went through the holy land and India etc and at the point of a sword attempted to convert not only the middle East but half of Asia.

Now we see that some Christian Nations made efforts to try and reclaim parts of the Middle East - and failed. That is supposed to be the great "defense" for Islam??

Be serious.

In Christ,

Bob

Oooh, I am serious, Bob! Hardly a defense of Islam, but the things that Christians did in the name of Christ put us about on the same level! And they were not on the defensive, either.

And then we can discuss what we have done to each other, and whether we truly show forth that which we believe!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob - The N.T. question that intrigues me most is that of Cornelius. Here we have a centurian, and so an idolator by necessity, and really by definition. Nonetheless his prayers and alms came up for a memorial before God... while he was still a pagan! He was at one point a saved idolator, it sounds to me! It was God who led him to Christ as a reward for his righteousness?

I don't think you have that right. We have numerous examples (acts 13 being one) in the NT and in the Gospels of Romans who worshipped the one true God and gentiles of other stripes worshipping the one true God.

Your assumption that you had to be an idol worshipper if you are not a blood-Jew is not held up in scripture.

But certainly as a believer in the one true God Cornelius is still neither Christian NOR an in-the-flesh Jew.

So the question remains - what about Jews whom everyone today would argue are not Christians.

And what about the non-Jews in the Old Testament who worshipped God? There are quite a few in there.

Indeed. I think the King of Salem the Priest of God is one.

But still it only gets them to the same religion as the Jews in terms of belief "at best" so the question remains - are Jews saved?

And as far as Islam's methods of violence being unique, I think it would be truly difficult to find a religion that killed more people than Christianity over the years.

Unless you include the millions slain for Islam and the Turkish Empire. But the point is not merely that "the people did evil" the point is that "conversion at the point of a sword" appears to be the teaching of the Koran not the Bible.

My argument is not that unsaved Christians are better than unsaved Muslims. Luke 12:55-58 states that the one who KNOWS to do right and does it not is MORE guilty than the one in spiritual darkness. My argument is that the holy text of Islam ITSELF is very different from the Word of God.

And the other distinctives already listed - are also a fact to consider.

In Christ,

Bob